Jump to content

bonehead move?


Recommended Posts

OK I was playing in a $10+1 1-table SNG last night when the following happened.4 players left. Top 3 pay 50/30/20. You know the deal.We're down to final 4. SB 150 BB 300. Chips: Me 1450girl to my left about 2700dude to her left about 175dude to his left (my right) 3675. I'm in SB with A 10 diamonds. I move all-in to steal the 300 BB or double up. (I'd moved all in pre-flop at least 3 times already and nobody had called so I thought I may get called with a weaker hand here). This table was playing VERY passively on the bubble. Even the chipleader didn't complete the SB to my BB.Girl to my left (with 2400 left)...takes forever...then calls. I'm happy when she calls. I'm even happier to see her flip over K 10 offsuit but have a bad feeling about the K. Like clockwork...a K comes on the flop knocking me out in 4th place. Next hand the guy with 175 is automatically all-in in the BB, and loses. He makes money. I don't. I felt sick. Should I have waited I thought? What really pisses me off is the fact that this guy had FOLDED in the SB just three hands earlier which was for almost half of his stack... he was totally trying to eek his way into the money, and I was the fool who allowed him that.I felt like crap. I mean I play for first. Not third. But I could have easily gotten away from this and eeked into the money as well. What also sucks is had my hand held up I'd have been at about 2900 in chips (2nd place). The chipleader was not too strong either. I 50/50 that I could have ended up first had I won this pot. But anyway... what are your thoughts? Too aggressive to push in there? Should I have just called and seen a flop? What would you guys have done?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 82
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Too agressive, in my opinion. There was no reason to do this. All in (in my books anyways) happens:1) when someone goes all in preflop before me, and I have AA in hand (not KK, not AK).2) Post flop (pre-turn), and I've nailed a set, straight or flush later in the tourney.3) I have the nut hand.4) Once Im 'in the money', THEN my game turns very agressive - like A10s, Id take a chance on that one, especially if the table is being passive.You took a chance, and got burned on a good, but not premier hand. Learn from it.Dev

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd probably be throwing any hand away except a big pair in this position and just wait for the small stack to go out. After ensuring a money spot I'd be looking for the first halfway decent hand and I'd be pushing all in. Normally, I advocate aggression and playing to win, however, in this spot the small stack is so low I'd just wait.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd pretty much agree with what was posted. I play for first as well, but in that situation, I play until top three, then play for first. Do you think that stealing the blinds here, as you said you were doing (OR double up), is going to be the difference in 1st to 2nd-4th?? I would have raised to try and steal them, and got out if I didnt hit my hand and the BB bet to me.That's how I see it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd have tried to see a cheap flop.All of your preflop raises should make the BB hesitant to make a move on you, and you see the K on the flop and fold, no harm done. Honestly, I think it's too passive to surrender your sb on this hand.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd have tried to see a cheap flop.All of your preflop raises should make the BB hesitant to make a move on you, and you see the K on the flop and fold, no harm done.  Honestly, I think it's too passive to surrender your sb on this hand.
Yeah, I mean, the poker gods would kill me if I folded this hand in the SB. That, frankly is not an option, even so close to the money. So it's either call, raise, or move all in. I don't have much room to raise here then get away from it, so that option is out the window. So, I figured it was limp, or push. I pushed cuz I figured I'd at least steal a BB, and very likely that I'd double up. Crappy situation though. I think over the course of 1000 SNG's, moving all in here is probably going to earn me more money than folding, limping, or raising will. Just my theory, of course, I also theorize about hand rankings and other satanic stuff like that...so...what're ya gonna do? :?
Link to post
Share on other sites
what're ya gonna do?    : ?
You're going to not risk all your chips on the bubble.
Here are the 3 things that can happen:1) I get called, and lose, and am knocked out -$11.002) I get a fold, and thus steal a blind. dude goes out next hand, I'm in the money for at least $20. +$9 profit.3a) I get a call, and win, and am up to 2900 (2nd in chips) with virtually 3 people left after the next hand. 2nd in chips theoretically will get me $30. +$19 profit. 3b) I get a call, and win, and am up to 2900 (2nd in chips) with virtually 3 people left after the next hand. Considering the chipstack has about 4 grand, and he's not as good as me, there is a chance I actually win first here. $50. +$39 profit.I think in the long run, pushing all in here will pay off much more than just eeking your way into the money. WRTO, I thought you said you play extra aggressive on the bubble? Is that only if you are the chipleader? Cuz the chipleader here wasn't even completing SB's.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. Farrell,I happen to agree with you on this one. It's either all-in or fold. A raise here of any significance commits you to the pot.A10s is really strong 4 handed on the bubble. So there is no way you fold.Now that I've said I agree, you mentioned that you had raised the big blind 3 times before. Given that, this may be one of those situations where a limp might have been warranted.At some point, if someone keeps raising my big blind and I have them covered, I will call with any 2 decent cards.Especially if I know if I lose, I'm still in the money (ie. the short stack was 175 and was about to get hit with 2 blinds).And now that I've contradicted myself, going all-in with A10s against 1 random hand will win more than it will lose long term.BTW: I'm not dodging you...I got your invite the other night and clicked accepted and nothing happened.I've never used the buddy feature on Party. I'll try to get accustomed to it this week so we can play.PS. As long as you don't change the rules and 3 of a kind still beats top 2 pair :D

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest XXEddie

Why dont you push in hereyou are down to about 5xBB and in the SB with A10s, you HAVE to move in here. Moving in here gives you a chance to finsh better than 3rd. You have to play to win, not to make the money. I love it when people fold everything just so they dont get bubbled out, they are a bunch of pussies and once they do make the money, there are down to 2-3BB and to go out third, hilarious to watch

Link to post
Share on other sites

The only valid point I see for limping is hoping she moves over the top of me (due to me stealing so many blinds lately, a limp may give off the "im not that strong vibe"). If she moves over the top I have to call considering she could have anything and is just making a move on me. All that makes a little sense.. but I mean if I limp and she moves all in I HAVE to call, so why risk it? I think just push all in here and hope to steal another blind or double up.Con for limping: Flop comes Q 9 5....... uhhhh...now what? You see what I mean? I don't want her to see any more cards than the two she's already got.In the end I think I just got unlucky, and busted out on the bubble. 9 times out of 10 pushing all in here is going to be +EV. I just wanted to see how you guys would have played this hand. Frankly I'm surprised at how tight the responses have been. I didn't think pushing all in was that bad.PS: What's the deal with everyone being nice to me today? You are the second person I've had a flame war with who has personally come out and agreed with me today. I don't get it, but it's nice. :-)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Why dont you push in hereyou are down to about 5xBB and in the SB with A10s, you HAVE to move in here. Moving in here gives you a chance to finsh better than 3rd. You have to play to win, not to make the money. I love it when people fold everything just so they dont get bubbled out, they are a bunch of pussies and once they do make the money, there are down to 2-3BB and to go out third, hilarious to watch
Thank you, Peter. You've renewed my faith in you.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest XXEddie
So you'd risk giving 20 bucks to a guy who's gonna be all in on the next BB?That makes no monetary sense at all.
correction, FOLDING makes no monetary sense whatsoever, you cant be playing to make the money, and its not certain that hell lose the all-in
Link to post
Share on other sites

The point is, I'm not playing for 3rd. I'll take 2nd with a great opportunity at first or 4th with no money before I take eeking my way into 3rd.I'm surprised at you WRTO. If I push all in here 100 times, and you fold 100 times, I guarantee you I will have made more real money at the end. It just happens to suck in the short term when you spend 45 minutes and earn nothing.WRTO, you need to put a disclaimer on your NL tourney posts. Aren't NL tourneys admittedly one of your weaker games? I thought I heard you say that once.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The point is, I'm not playing for 3rd.  I'll take 2nd with a great opportunity at first or 4th with no money before I take eeking my way into 3rd.I'm surprised at you WRTO.  If I push all in here 100 times, and you fold 100 times, I guarantee you I will have made more real money at the end.  It just happens to suck in the short term when you spend 45 minutes and earn nothing.WRTO, you need to put a disclaimer on your NL tourney posts.  Aren't NL tourneys admittedly one of your weaker games?  I thought I heard you say that once.
No, they are not.The short stack has T125! nuff said.
Link to post
Share on other sites
The point is, I'm not playing for 3rd.  I'll take 2nd with a great opportunity at first or 4th with no money before I take eeking my way into 3rd.I'm surprised at you WRTO.  If I push all in here 100 times, and you fold 100 times, I guarantee you I will have made more real money at the end.  It just happens to suck in the short term when you spend 45 minutes and earn nothing.WRTO, you need to put a disclaimer on your NL tourney posts.  Aren't NL tourneys admittedly one of your weaker games?  I thought I heard you say that once.
No, they are not.The short stack has T125! nuff said.
Please list your games in order of expertise. I know how much limit and NL ring games you play...this cannot leave you much time to polish up on your NL tourneys.I really only play 3 games (in order of strength)1) NL tourneys $10+12) NL cash games $25 buy-in3) limit .5/1I would like to play more Omaha hi, but I need to polish up on it for fake money before I subject my bankroll to it.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know which is worse.Your ideas about poker.Or your play.You should think about finding other hobbies.Also, why in the world do you play Sit n Gos?There's a reason you get put in to these situations. It's because the blind structures are ****ing awful.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes you have to laydown the best hand in order to be a winner in the long run. Why? Because as you found out the hard way, having the best hand isn't always good enough.And your "move in 100 times/you fold 100 times" theory shows you have absolutely no clue what you're doing right now. About 99 of those times he folds like he should, he makes himself guaranteed money and lives to fight another day when the other guy with T125 busts. Meanwhile, you bang your head against the wall trying to steal a big blind. And we won't even go into the fact that she COULD have had you dominated or 50/50 hand because I'm sure that possibility was lost on you. Therefore, considering he's getting paid 99 of those times for sure and even winning 1st a nice amount of the time because he's already proven he's not a dumbshat who's ""playing to win" and risking his entire stack for no reason, I like his chances alot more than yours.If you play to win, big shot, play roulette, bet it all on black. If you play the percentages and play smart poker, you get the sure money first, then hope your best hand holds up. Dummy.Bonehead move.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The shortstack can barely cover the SB, let alone the BB. Even if he doubles up in the BB, he's commiting half his stack to the next hand. That basically translates to him having to win 2 consecutive hands just to hang around. Unless I'm looking at AA or KK here, I'm probably going to fold.

Girl to my left (with 2400 left)...takes forever...then calls. I'm happy when she calls.
Why would you EVER be happy that she called? Most cases, you're only going to be about a 60/40 favorite AT best to any hand that calls you here. Here, you got lucky that the 10s were shared and you were 75/25, but most of the time, you're not going to be so lucky by a hand that calls you.
Link to post
Share on other sites
I really only play 3 games (in order of strength)1) NL tourneys $10+12) NL cash games  $25 buy-in3) limit  .5/1
If the above is a sample of your play in what you consider to be your strongest game then I would just love to see some of your plays in limit .5/1 games :lol:Why on earth would you piss away a guaranteed money finish on a hand like this.Pushing here is NEVER going to GUARANTEE any more money than a 3rd place finish. At best it will put you in 2nd but with the blind structure as it is you are still short stacked (less than 10x BB) and you still have plenty of work to do to finish higher than 3rd.Using your example
1) I get called, and lose, and am knocked out -$11.00  2) I get a fold, and thus steal a blind. dude goes out next hand, I'm in the money for at least $20. +$9 profit.  3a) I get a call, and win, and am up to 2900 (2nd in chips) with virtually 3 people left after the next hand. 2nd in chips theoretically will get me $30. +$19 profit.  3b) I get a call, and win, and am up to 2900 (2nd in chips) with virtually 3 people left after the next hand. Considering the chipstack has about 4 grand, and he's not as good as me, there is a chance I actually win first here. $50. +$39 profit.
1) is gonna happen a lot more than you seem to think. 2) will happen most often but it doesn't particularly help you - you are pretty much guaranteed 3rd already so what have you gained.3a) yes you will probably win 6 times out of 10 where you get a call. You still haven't guaranteed any higher than 3rd though. Still lots of poker to play.3b) "considering he's not as good as me"?????? - You really have got to be the most arrogant person on this forum.Once again you have shown your ignorance with this post. You originally asked for advice on whether should you have pushed here and then flame on anyone who suggests that you shouldn't.Don't bother asking for advice if you are not willing to listen and learn from other people's opinions.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Sometimes you have to laydown the best hand in order to be a winner in the long run. Why? Because as you found out the hard way, having the best hand isn't always good enough.And your  "move in 100 times/you fold 100 times"  theory shows you have absolutely no clue what you're doing right now. About 99 of those times he folds like he should, he makes himself guaranteed money and lives to fight another day when the other guy with T125 busts. Meanwhile, you bang your head against the wall trying to steal a big blind. And we won't even go into the fact that she COULD have had you dominated or 50/50 hand because I'm sure that possibility was lost on you. Therefore, considering he's getting paid 99 of those times for sure and even winning 1st a nice amount of the time because he's already proven he's not a dumbshat who's ""playing to win" and risking his entire stack for no reason, I like his chances alot more than yours.If you play to win, big shot, play roulette, bet it all on black. If you play the percentages and play smart poker, you get the sure money first, then hope your  best hand holds up. Dummy.Bonehead move.
Are you serious? Had my hand held up here, I'm second in chips, with a great opportunity to take 1st.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Announcements


×
×
  • Create New...