Razzle Dazzle

[KingJames 11]

I've been doing terribly at Razz recently... I'm playing very tight... playing only 3 to a 6-low or better on 3rd, a 7 or 8 if I have a wheel card showing (74 5) (83 A)So assuming it's either 2 or 3 bets on 3rd, is it ALWAYS correct to call one bet heads-up if you catch terrible on 4th and they catch good?EXAMPLE- I generaly play .25/.50 Horse on FTP... 5 to 8 handedHero: 63 5Villain: XX 4So let's say a K brings in... 3 folds and I complete with the 5 and villain raises... often times I call, sometimes I raise, depending on the door cards and villains image.So if no hitch-hikers come along, there is 4 SBs, the bring-in and the antes... so in the .25/.50 games it's like $1.40 (6-handed)If I catch terrible, say I King, and villain catches an 8 or better... Bets, and its .25 to call the now $1.65, can we always call? Should we save our "call on any 4th" for super premium hands like (A3 4) and (54 A)??Also, if villain catches "really good" like another wheel card, I sometimes auto-fold, but I've been thinking that if they put in a raise or 3 bets with 4... they should have started with 3 wheel cards, and there is a chance they paired up...I dunno, I am lost when it comes to Razz right now...Any and all advice and suggestions would be wonderfulTY and GL

[Chet Chetterson 0]

As soon as you are down a card it is very bad to chase, this is a fold the vast majority of the time. It sucks to do it, but you need to. I probably would never three bet in that situation, but I play pretty conservatively on 3rd

[Biff Goods 0]

"razz is a card catching game for idiots" - Mike MatasowOn the reals though I couldn't even begin to talk to you about strategy on razz. Half the time I feel like a genius playing it and the other half of the time I feel like a moron.

[MaxStPolish 4]

I've been doing terribly at Razz recently... I'm playing very tight... playing only 3 to a 6-low or better on 3rd, a 7 or 8 if I have a wheel card showing (74 5) (83 A)So assuming it's either 2 or 3 bets on 3rd, is it ALWAYS correct to call one bet heads-up if you catch terrible on 4th and they catch good?EXAMPLE- I generaly play .25/.50 Horse on FTP... 5 to 8 handedHero: 63 5Villain: XX 4So let's say a K brings in... 3 folds and I complete with the 5 and villain raises... often times I call, sometimes I raise, depending on the door cards and villains image.So if no hitch-hikers come along, there is 4 SBs, the bring-in and the antes... so in the .25/.50 games it's like $1.40 (6-handed)If I catch terrible, say I King, and villain catches an 8 or better... Bets, and its .25 to call the now $1.65, can we always call? Should we save our "call on any 4th" for super premium hands like (A3 4) and (54 A)??Also, if villain catches "really good" like another wheel card, I sometimes auto-fold, but I've been thinking that if they put in a raise or 3 bets with 4... they should have started with 3 wheel cards, and there is a chance they paired up...I dunno, I am lost when it comes to Razz right now...Any and all advice and suggestions would be wonderfulTY and GL

I almost never 3 bet on 3rd. In this situation I def call the raise and reevaluate on the turn. If the guy gets a non-pairing 6 or less, it's almost auto fold, anything else I'd ride along as long as you didn't brick. I'll actually float 3rd often with any 8 or less card to fire on a brick 4th for opponent. I'm just starting to get a feel for this game beyond the "setting parameters of playing x type hands and folding all others." There's a fine line between all the pots you can take when your opponent hits a brick early and you hit a low (even if it pairs you underneath), and getting too nitty with opponents that will call up and down with a 10-8 low (gawd, I shudder thinking about a trny i played a week or so ago that I got taken on a huge pot early ITM with A26T showing on board, when i got called down by a 8-7 low that was made on 7th....had A3 down low and bricked a Q on 7th). The way I play, I'll apply more pressure earlier, but will also fold quicker to villian strength on 4th/5th. The other thing is slowing down on 6th/7th if villian just keeps hanging around. There's no need to keep jamming the pot if you are down or don't know where you stand. Then you can reevaluate and see if there's any value to a call on the end depending on nittiness of your villian.i dunno, I'm no expert, but that's how i play, and horse has been my best game lately and razz is usually my best or always top 2 session in any trny.

[KingJames 11]

"razz is a card catching game for idiots" - Mike MatasowOn the reals though I couldn't even begin to talk to you about strategy on razz. Half the time I feel like a genius playing it and the other half of the time I feel like a moron.

Truth!!Max also, good points!

[checkymcfold 0]

3bet on 3rd more so that you win more pots uncontested and you can draw if you brick on 4th and have a smooth draw. playing more pots is fun.in your example, insta3b unless like all the deuces and 4s are dead on 3rd.

[Cappy37 0]

Checky's right, of course... i'll pm you a couple of other thoughts:

[AmScray 355]

You 3 bet that 100% of the time, against 95% of opponents. You call 4th. 5th; if you catch and he bricks, you're peeling a free 6th with a controllable pot and likely, a free river. If you catch and he catches marginal, you have the odds to call any bet (or even bet out if he's shown weakness in the past) without developing a monster pot. If you brick, you can fold while having taken proper pot odds going into it.If your opponent catches a wheel card on 5th and you catch "OK" (say an 8), you have some decisions to make. A decent player will bet that 100% of the time even if it paired him. In higher level games, often times players raise here and force villain to define. He will reraise almost always if he's clean, but will often times just call if the small card paired him up, having the pot odds to take off another street but obviously, not enough to value in his hand to develop the pot any more. This often times leads to a free showdown, or , a very easy decision to make on 6th.

[KingJames 11]

My last round of Razz...1st : 39 9 Fold2nd: QK 2 (no steal potential as a 3 completed a 4 was still behind me)3rd:Razz ($0.25/$0.5), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)3rd Street - (1.2 SB)Seat 1: xx xx A ___foldsHero: 6 2 3 ___completesSeat 4: xx xx T ___foldsSeat 6: xx xx J ___brings-in ___foldsSeat 7: xx xx 3 ___calls ___callsSeat 8: xx xx 9 ___calls ___calls4th Street - (4.6 SB)Hero: 6 2 3 Q ___callsSeat 7: xx xx 3 6 ___betsSeat 8: xx xx 9 A ___calls5th Street - (3.8 BB)Hero: 6 2 3 Q 4 ___raisesSeat 7: xx xx 3 6 T ___bets ___callsSeat 8: xx xx 9 A T ___calls ___calls6th Street - (9.8 BB)Hero: 6 2 3 Q 4 T ___checksSeat 7: xx xx 3 6 T 8 ___checksSeat 8: xx xx 9 A T 3 ___checksRiver - (9.8 BB)Hero: 6 2 3 Q 4 T J ___foldsSeat 7: xx xx 3 6 T 8 xx ___checks ___callsSeat 8: xx xx 9 A T 3 xx ___betsTotal pot: (11.8 BB - $5.90)4th:Razz ($0.25/$0.5), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)3rd Street - (1.4 SB)Seat 1: xx xx 8 ___foldsSeat 2: xx xx A ___foldsHero: 2 3 5 ___completesSeat 4: xx xx K ___brings-in ___foldsSeat 6: xx xx Q ___foldsSeat 7: xx xx J ___foldsSeat 8: xx xx 3 ___calls ___calls4th Street - (3.8 SB)Hero: 2 3 5 4 ___betsSeat 8: xx xx 3 6 ___calls5th Street - (2.9 BB)Hero: 2 3 5 4 T ___betsSeat 8: xx xx 3 6 T ___calls6th Street - (4.9 BB)Hero: 2 3 5 4 T 5 ___checksSeat 8: xx xx 3 6 T 7 ___checksRiver - (4.9 BB)Hero: 2 3 5 4 T 5 2 ___callsSeat 8: xx xx 3 6 T 7 xx ___betsTotal pot: (6.9 BB - $3.45)

[KingJames 11]

5th:Razz ($0.25/$0.5), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)3rd Street - (1.4 SB)Seat 1: xx xx 7 ___foldsSeat 2: xx xx 6 ___foldsHero: 3 A 2 ___completes ___raisesSeat 4: xx xx 5 ___raises ___callsSeat 6: xx xx 9 ___foldsSeat 7: xx xx Q ___brings-in ___foldsSeat 8: xx xx 9 ___calls ___calls ___calls4th Street - (10.8 SB)Hero: 3 A 2 5 ___betsSeat 4: xx xx 5 8 ___callsSeat 8: xx xx 9 9 ___folds5th Street - (6.4 BB)Hero: 3 A 2 5 J ___betsSeat 4: xx xx 5 8 2 ___checks ___calls6th Street - (8.4 BB)Hero: 3 A 2 5 J 6 ___betsSeat 4: xx xx 5 8 2 2 ___callsRiver - (10.4 BB)Hero: 3 A 2 5 J 6 T ___betsSeat 4: xx xx 5 8 2 2 xx ___callsTotal pot: (12.4 BB - $6.20)6th: 2Q 67th: 5K Q8th: A5 8 won on 3rd

[KingJames 11]

9th: Razz ($0.25/$0.5), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)3rd Street - (1.4 SB)Seat 1: xx xx 7 ___foldsSeat 2: xx xx 8 ___completes ___callsHero: 2 6 5 ___raisesSeat 5: xx xx 2 ___foldsSeat 6: xx xx 9 ___foldsSeat 7: xx xx 8 ___foldsSeat 8: xx xx J ___brings-in ___folds4th Street - (5.8 SB)Seat 2: xx xx 8 5 ___callsHero: 2 6 5 2 ___bets5th Street - (3.9 BB)Seat 2: xx xx 8 5 3 ___checksHero: 2 6 5 2 6 ___checks6th Street - (3.9 BB)Seat 2: xx xx 8 5 3 4 ___betsHero: 2 6 5 2 6 7 ___checks ___callsRiver - (5.9 BB)Seat 2: xx xx 8 5 3 4 xx ___checksHero: 2 6 5 2 6 7 K ___checksTotal pot: (5.9 BB - $2.95)10th:Razz ($0.25/$0.5), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)3rd Street - (1.4 SB)Seat 1: xx xx 8 ___foldsSeat 2: xx xx 5 ___foldsHero: J 4 K ___brings-inSeat 5: xx xx 2 ___foldsSeat 6: xx xx 3 ___foldsSeat 7: xx xx 5 ___callsSeat 8: xx xx 4 ___folds4th Street - (2.2 SB)Hero: J 4 K 6 ___foldsSeat 7: xx xx 5 2 ___betsTotal pot: (3.2 SB - $0.80)I know it's long but any comments would be appreciated.Thanks and GL on the tables guys.

[Cappy37 0]

i didn't see anything above that i would have done much different (and believe me, I scrutinized).on hand 9, I bet 5th everytime.. But that's probably a leak on my part .I'd give you an A on the orbit. Sadly, an A =/= profit. which is the b*tch about horse/razz in the first place.imagine how much you win catching a card or two. In the long run, the guys playing catchup will ship you their money. looks like today wasnt that day.I've been "down" like 6 of my last 7 sessions. Lately it's like the donkeys aren't reloading and the nitty 20 tablers are breeding behind closed doors. so very frustrating indeed. I don't need a zillion plat/supernova nits when I'm trying to beat rake at $1/2.. bleh.

[gfdsa146 0]

i didn't see anything above that i would have done much different (and believe me, I scrutinized).on hand 9, I bet 5th everytime.. But that's probably a leak on my part .I'd give you an A on the orbit. Sadly, an A =/= profit. which is the b*tch about horse/razz in the first place.imagine how much you win catching a card or two. In the long run, the guys playing catchup will ship you their money. looks like today wasnt that day.I've been "down" like 6 of my last 7 sessions. Lately it's like the donkeys aren't reloading and the nitty 20 tablers are breeding behind closed doors. so very frustrating indeed. I don't need a zillion plat/supernova nits when I'm trying to beat rake at $1/2.. bleh.

OMFG THIS IS SO ANNOYING!!! AND I PLAY .5/1 STUD8, WHERE THE RAKE IS WORSE!!!

[KingJames 11]

i didn't see anything above that i would have done much different (and believe me, I scrutinized).on hand 9, I bet 5th everytime.. But that's probably a leak on my part .I'd give you an A on the orbit. Sadly, an A =/= profit. which is the b*tch about horse/razz in the first place.imagine how much you win catching a card or two. In the long run, the guys playing catchup will ship you their money. looks like today wasnt that day.I've been "down" like 6 of my last 7 sessions. Lately it's like the donkeys aren't reloading and the nitty 20 tablers are breeding behind closed doors. so very frustrating indeed. I don't need a zillion plat/supernova nits when I'm trying to beat rake at $1/2.. bleh.

At these lower limits, villains aren't folding whent hey are showing 853, they're down to "see who makes the best hand"... but maybe I should have... he could have paired or two paired also

[HangukMiguk 8]

on hand 9, I bet 5th everytime.. But that's probably a leak on my part .

I'd slap your hand like Men Nguyen slaps Lance Funston's if I ever saw you do that son.I agree with all the advice otherwise.

[KingJames 11]

i didn't see anything above that i would have done much different (and believe me, I scrutinized).on hand 9, I bet 5th everytime.. But that's probably a leak on my part .I'd give you an A on the orbit. Sadly, an A =/= profit. which is the b*tch about horse/razz in the first place.imagine how much you win catching a card or two. In the long run, the guys playing catchup will ship you their money. looks like today wasnt that day.I've been "down" like 6 of my last 7 sessions. Lately it's like the donkeys aren't reloading and the nitty 20 tablers are breeding behind closed doors. so very frustrating indeed. I don't need a zillion plat/supernova nits when I'm trying to beat rake at $1/2.. bleh.

Also, I had been playing lots of pots, my image is prolbably LAG... but maybe firing would be okay