serge 904 Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 The Ottawa Senators came back into the NHL in 1992 as an expansion team where they missed the playoffs 4 years in a row..This enabled them to get the following draft picks1992-2nd overall(Yashin)1993-1st overall(Daigle)1994-3rd overall(Bonk)1995-1st overall(Berrard)1996-1st overall(Phillips)This enabled them to win a total of ONE playoff round in the next 5 years.....As a matter fact in the 15 years of their existence they have managed to win 5 playoff rounds....In comparison the Leafs did not have the luxury of these phenomenal draft positions and in the 15 years since Ottawa came into the league they have won a total of 11 playoff rounds...Reaching the Conference finals on 4 occasions...The Leafs have been criticized as not drafting well, making bad trades and in general not being a franchise that has done wellSo how do you categorize how the Ottawa Senators have done...?...The so called 40 year jinx without Stanley Cup is just a way to criticize this team....As a matter of fact this has been a very succesful franchise when you compare the numbers...Only one team can win the Stanley Cup every year...The Leafs were in a position to win it several times over the past 15 years....Thank you Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 You can't compare the first 5 years, or 15 years for that matter, of an expansion team to those of an established franchise. At least not in this manner. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 11, 2007 Author Share Posted March 11, 2007 You can't compare the first 5 years, or 15 years for that matter, of an expansion team to those of an established franchise. At least not in this manner.of course you can...their inability to win in the playoffs, their superior draft positions..and still they are much worse than off than the Leafs have been..But the perception is totally different.. Link to post Share on other sites
pezeveng 207 Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Serge your love for the Leafs is admirable. I think Pat Quinn and his stubborn ways cost the Leafs in previous years, Iam really hoping Maurice gets the job done because he's one hell of a coach. Let the youth movement begin. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 11, 2007 Author Share Posted March 11, 2007 Serge your love for the Leafs is admirable. I think Pat Quinn and his stubborn ways cost the Leafs in previous years, Iam really hoping Maurice gets the job done because he's one hell of a coach. Let the youth movement begin.why did it cost them...4 conference finals they went to....the only thing you can ask your team is to be in a POSITION to win the cup...There never is a clear favourite to win the cup..the leafs have been in that position....People need to realize this Link to post Share on other sites
WestcoastCanuck 0 Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Try comparing the Leafs over the last 15 years to an actual successful franchise like Detroit, Colorado or New Jersey. Link to post Share on other sites
mrdannyg 274 Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 i don't think anyone would argue that the sens are not playoff chokers. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Share Posted March 12, 2007 Try comparing the Leafs over the last 15 years to an actual successful franchise like Detroit, Colorado or New Jersey.there isnt a lot of teams that have been more succesful than the Leafs...Other than those 3 you mention cant think of anymore..... Link to post Share on other sites
gruven 530 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 there isnt a lot of teams that have been more succesful than the Leafs...Other than those 3 you mention cant think of anymore..... I think it's pretty safe to say that every team that has won a cup in the past 15 years is more successful than the Leafs... Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Share Posted March 12, 2007 I think it's pretty safe to say that every team that has won a cup in the past 15 years is more successful than the Leafs...thats just not true....my argument is if you are in a position to win a cup..and I will argue they were close on at least 4 occasions, then you have had a succesful season..thanks Link to post Share on other sites
doox 15 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 So...let me get this straight.Coming close or at least sniffing at the Cup a couple times is better than actually winning it?"Just when I thought you couldn't [say] anything dumber, you [say] something like this... and completely redeem yourself!" Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Share Posted March 12, 2007 So...let me get this straight.Coming close or at least sniffing at the Cup a couple times is better than actually winning it?"Just when I thought you couldn't [say] anything dumber, you [say] something like this... and completely redeem yourself!"its obvious you dont get the argument...so you should just shut the **** up and watch your stupid penguins..hope they move , so you are left teamless, so the piece of **** city is without hockey. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 "Just when I thought you couldn't [say] anything dumber, you [say] something like this... and completely redeem yourself!"LOL nice work. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Share Posted March 12, 2007 LOL nice work.obviously you are an imbicile too...you deserve each other Link to post Share on other sites
doox 15 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 its obvious you dont get the argument...so you should just shut the **** up and watch your stupid penguins..hope they move , so you are left teamless, so the piece of **** city is without hockey.yawn. Link to post Share on other sites
DanielNegreanu 141 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 Serge, you say such foolish, foolish, things time and time again. The Leafs results the last 30 years have been totally disgraceful and while you can try to find some angle where that's not true, you are just kidding yourself. There are always teams that are favored, or more likely to win the cup, and the USUALLY do win the cup. The Leafs in the 80's, 90's, or now, have NEVER been among the legitimate favorites to win the cup. Even when they lost in the conference final, they lost to a better team. Had they even made the final, they would have faced a better team. The Leafs have NOTHING to show for their last 20 years in this league other than futlity and an unwillingness to do what's necessary to become a top team in the league. You are a total sucker for the owners of the team who make all of their money off of people like you, who just dream of a hitting a gutshot and winning a cup with an inferior team. The Leafs are all about MAKING MONEY. You just don't get it. They really don't care about winning it all, they care about consistently selling seats and putting a mediocre team out there that people like you will be fooled into thinking, "this is their year man." No. It's not their year. It hasn't been their year for... well, 40 freaking years!!!!!!!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 Serge has said that he would rather make the playoffs every year than suffer through a few non-playoff years to win the Cup.Some people get a bigger thrill out of the possibility of sex than actually having sex. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Share Posted March 12, 2007 Serge, you say such foolish, foolish, things time and time again. The Leafs results the last 30 years have been totally disgraceful and while you can try to find some angle where that's not true, you are just kidding yourself. There are always teams that are favored, or more likely to win the cup, and the USUALLY do win the cup. The Leafs in the 80's, 90's, or now, have NEVER been among the legitimate favorites to win the cup. Even when they lost in the conference final, they lost to a better team. Had they even made the final, they would have faced a better team. The Leafs have NOTHING to show for their last 20 years in this league other than futlity and an unwillingness to do what's necessary to become a top team in the league. You are a total sucker for the owners of the team who make all of their money off of people like you, who just dream of a hitting a gutshot and winning a cup with an inferior team. The Leafs are all about MAKING MONEY. You just don't get it. They really don't care about winning it all, they care about consistently selling seats and putting a mediocre team out there that people like you will be fooled into thinking, "this is their year man." No. It's not their year. It hasn't been their year for... well, 40 freaking years!!!!!!!!!!!and its comments like that from so called fans that handicap them....its amazing when the Leafs are winning playoff rounds people are all happy and positive..My argument is solid...Just because youdont win the cup, doesnt mean you had a bad year ...thanks Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 and its comments like that from so called fans that handicap them....its amazing when the Leafs are winning playoff rounds people are all happy and positive..My argument is solid...Just because youdont win the cup, doesnt mean you had a bad year ...thanksI'd bet if you ask 95% of the players in the league that question, they'd say it certainly is a bad year if they don't win the cup. Link to post Share on other sites
gruven 530 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 and its comments like that from so called fans that handicap them....its amazing when the Leafs are winning playoff rounds people are all happy and positive..My argument is solid...Just because youdont win the cup, doesnt mean you had a bad year ...thanks That wasn't your argument: your argument was that the Leafs were better over the past 15 years than the other teams. If you can fool yourself into thinking that winning the cup isn't as good as being competitive, you're just a complete moron, and should give yourself one of your patented serge timeouts from posting idiotic statements. And I can tell you this for certain: I've spoken personally with HUNDREDS of NHL players over the years. Some of my best friends play or have played in the NHL. And I absolutely GUARANTEE you that they would all trade 14 years of being competitive for getting their name on the cup just once. Hell, if I had played in the NHL, I'd take finishing last for 14 years in order to win that trophy once. There is no greater prize in sports, and any player worth a damn would give his left AND his right nut to have their name engraved on it. Now go make out with your Kyle Wellwood poster, and stop putting idiocy on these pages..... Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Share Posted March 12, 2007 That wasn't your argument: your argument was that the Leafs were better over the past 15 years than the other teams. If you can fool yourself into thinking that winning the cup isn't as good as being competitive, you're just a complete moron, and should give yourself one of your patented serge timeouts from posting idiotic statements. And I can tell you this for certain: I've spoken personally with HUNDREDS of NHL players over the years. Some of my best friends play or have played in the NHL. And I absolutely GUARANTEE you that they would all trade 14 years of being competitive for getting their name on the cup just once. Hell, if I had played in the NHL, I'd take finishing last for 14 years in order to win that trophy once. There is no greater prize in sports, and any player worth a damn would give his left AND his right nut to have their name engraved on it. Now go make out with your Kyle Wellwood poster, and stop putting idiocy on these pages.....Once again it is mind boggling how you are a writer but you seem to not comprehend simple words...I am not a player in the NHL and my view is that of a fan....The way the NHL is set up, there is no way to guarantee yourself of a Stanley Cup...Hence the Ottawa Senators..They sucked for 7-8 years and where did it get them?Did it get them a cup?NO...did it get them a stanley cup final?no...Therefore I rather have a team that has a ticket...That ticket is an above average team who makes the Stanley Cup Playoffs...and with that ticket if the right things happen you can win a Stanley Cup...Lets talk about the Penguins...They sucked for 7 years too....Did this GUARANTEE them a cup?NO...Did this put them in a position to possible challenge for a CUP.??Maybe...My argument is that the Toronto Maple Leafs have been a very good team over the last 15 years....A team with a little luck or circumstance could of won a cup , maybe 3.....However they have been there every year with THAT ticket......Also your argument about NHL players is not only stupid, but moot......How many players are there in the NHL that have suffered through a rebuilding process and have been there to "collect" ...Most of them are selfish and take the easy route out by asking for a trade or leave at free agency to go to a team that has a better chance at the CUP...so your argument yet again does not hold water..And please dont ridicule my arguments with your condescending comments...I dont appreciate being ridiculed for stating my feelings in an open forum and by stating facts that I back up....I have been known to post silly posts before , however I truly believe whatI am saying with respect to this issue..Thanks Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 My argument is that the Toronto Maple Leafs have been a very good team over the last 15 years.LMAO Link to post Share on other sites
gruven 530 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 LMAO It's hysterical when he misquotes himself.... Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 And I absolutely GUARANTEE you that they would all trade 14 years of being competitive for getting their name on the cup just once. Hell, if I had played in the NHL, I'd take finishing last for 14 years in order to win that trophy once.Really? wow, I gotta tell you, I'm a little suprised at that, both from your viewpoint and your experience with NHL'ers.So you would be ok with being bottom 3 team for 14/15 years as long as one of those years you won the cup? But have a career where you lose3 out of every 4 games that you play? Would that not get on your patience and nerves? Of course the Cup is the thing for any one year, but in this extreme viewpoint, Id rather be competitive for 15. I think sometimes too much emphasis is put upon an individuals career's championships.what I mean is, Id rather be Dan Marino than Trent Dilfer. Being the Atlanta Braves instead of the Arizona Diamonbacks might be more my style.And to win it Ray Bourque like style, where you join a team for the "tournament" and win it.....not that gratifing to me as an athelete.also, i wonder how many NHL fans would say the Carolina franchise has been more successful over the last 15yrs than the Calgary franchise, just because Calgary didnt win one game.I don't know many pro athelets like you do, and the only one I knew actually said to me once"Man, its ok to win games in March, but if we keep this up, we might make the playoffs. And I gotta work on my cottage, I dont really want to go 1/2 rounds and miss out on a good part of the summer!" Now Im not saying this guy wasnt CRAZY, cause I would have killed to be in his shoes. But thats my experience, limited as it was! thats the NHL player I KNEW! Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Share Posted March 12, 2007 Really? wow, I gotta tell you, I'm a little suprised at that, both from your viewpoint and your experience with NHL'ers.So you would be ok with being bottom 3 team for 14/15 years as long as one of those years you won the cup? But have a career where you lose3 out of every 4 games that you play? Would that not get on your patience and nerves? Of course the Cup is the thing for any one year, but in this extreme viewpoint, Id rather be competitive for 15. I think sometimes too much emphasis is put upon an individuals career's championships.what I mean is, Id rather be Dan Marino than Trent Dilfer. Being the Atlanta Braves instead of the Arizona Diamonbacks might be more my style.And to win it Ray Bourque like style, where you join a team for the "tournament" and win it.....not that gratifing to me as an athelete.also, i wonder how many NHL fans would say the Carolina franchise has been more successful over the last 15yrs than the Calgary franchise, just because Calgary didnt win one game.I don't know many pro athelets like you do, and the only one I knew actually said to me once"Man, its ok to win games in March, but if we keep this up, we might make the playoffs. And I gotta work on my cottage, I dont really want to go 1/2 rounds and miss out on a good part of the summer!" Now Im not saying this guy wasnt CRAZY, cause I would have killed to be in his shoes. But thats my experience, limited as it was! thats the NHL player I KNEW! Finally someone that is trying to get what I say....Of course nothing would be more satisfying for a Leaf fan like myself to win a Stanley Cup...However I am not willing to sacrifice 7 years of losing to maybe get a good shot at it...I think the Leafs in their current state are not too far from having a good shot at the Cup...The Dan Marino and Trent Dilfer analogy is bang on....According to Gruven, Trent Dilfer had the better career....I honestly feel as a leaf fan like one of those American Express commercials...Leafs playoff game on my 52 inch high def screen with Bob Cole calling the game....PRICELESS...I would hate to give that up without trying for 3-5 years....And I also agree with the Ray Bourque analogy.....Ask Mats Sundin how he feels...I am sure he will tell you he rather win the CUP with the Leafs then go and try as a rent a player....What meaning does that have for a player to win a 2 month tournament without going through a whole season!!! I guess for some players it would but not all.....This whole 1967 thing has grown out of proportion by the media, particularly by the anti Toronto writers. Making fun of the greatest hockey city in the world is popular and I guess it sells papers....With all due respect to Gruven most writers jobs are to create a controversy and a story where there is no story....The fact of the matter is this franchise has been very succesful if you take the 1980s out of the equation(which we can call the Ballard black hole years)....Just because they havent been lucky enough to win a two month tournament with tons of variables doesnt make them a failure..Thanks for listening... Link to post Share on other sites
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