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I'm stealing this hand from Victor at 2p2, without his permission, because I think this is a very interesting hand to discuss.Here is the link to the 2p2 thread: standardMoving on, this hand really should get you guys thinking about hand ranges, and how to assign someone to a solid range, and get value from that range.You should also be thinking about our hand, in relation to what we think of his range. Kinda want to illustrate the point that we can't just be all like "zomg full house raise!!" or "meh, weak hand, get to showdown cheap", etc.I won't post the results of the hand, and I urge you not to look at them in the 2p2 thread, but this river raise is not a bluff.===================$30.00/$60.00 Limit Hold'em - 5 playersThe Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.comPre Flop: Hero is SB with :club::D1 fold, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, CO caps!, Hero callsFlop: (4.5 BB) :D :D :)(2 players)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero callsTurn: (5.5 BB) :)(2 players)Hero checks, CO checksRiver: (5.5 BB) :D(2 players)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises...

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this is funny, because after i read what you wrote and thought about it i was like oh yea duh of course, but i would never think of this during a hand. co misplayed it, any hand he is going to check that turn with he should check that river with. i don't know the sb, but if you are going to cap there preflop with something like AQs (no, i didn't look up the results) i think you should fire at all three streets on this board. i can see his thinking on the river, but they must have a lot of history with each other to do something like this. in general most players who are the CO there aren't calling that check raise with a hand that AK beats.

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The thing is, the line is so odd, that someone may look them up with any ace.At the same time, the river line is strong, so it might persuade someone else to fold a weak hand. I suppose the second point doesn't apply at all to this particualar board, though. This board also makes it a bit harder for a hand worse than AK to call, but I'd expect to get looked up by AT to AQ.As for the SB's play, I don't hate a v-bet if he has a hand like AQ, AJ, AT, since our hero could have a number of weaker aces wanting to get to showdown, against something like QKs. Of course, he should never call the raise, but the line being soooo weird just makes people want to pay to see wtf he has.Of course. SBs range is pretty obvious here when he checks the turn, right? He's usually got something he wants to take to sd cheaply, without facing a c/r bluff/semibluff, etc. Of course, as you pointed out, and I agree, SB should be betting the turn, and making a decision on the river whether his AT or AJ or AQ type hand is worth a v-bet on this board.I actually wish the board was less scary, so we could debate the play a bit more openly, where more will call, etc, not that any of this board hits any part of any range, aside from flushes, and the odd set.

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Looking at hands like these makes me realize how much more I have to learn with LHE. Even if I put villain on complete air, like the hero did, I like cheap showdowns with A high and prolly would just call. I wonder why villain checked the turn, since this shows a lot of weakness to hero. What if river comes a scare card like a 10, J, or Q? Does hero just call or muck? B/c hero obviously puts villain on a hand like A10-AQ, maybe AK. What if villain 3 bets river, does hero still call??I have no idea what the answers are to these questions and this is why I love LHE so much more than NLHE. So much more to learn on how to extract maximum value out of each hand, instead of just pushing all your chips and and saying all in.

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This is such a deep hand.I don't feel like I can usefully comment on it, but I'll give it a try.I think we usually raise a pair or draw on the flop, so that's heavily discounted.I think he bets the turn with any pair or draw a huge % of the time so that's heavily discounted.Given his turn check, I think he is value betting a AJ/AQ hands here a bit, so I do like our c/r.If we were bluffing the river, the checkraise is more likely than a lead (because he has an easy call of a lead with a big range).I really am struggling to think of his range for checking behind on the turn other than a hand we still beat on the river.Let me know if this is way off.

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========================Anyone think AK should just flat out value bet this river?
Damnit, I just typed out a big answer to this and dropped my water bottle on the keyboard and it erased my response. Lets try this again....Depends on the read against the villain. If we think villain will value bet their A10-AQ we can c/r the river. Hero obviously knew villian would value bet here.After villain shows weakness on the turn by checking, villain knows that hero is aware now that villains hand is not that strong. So villain is expecting for hero to value bet his hand on river if hero were to have a bigger ace than villain. Basically by checking on the turn, villain is expecting hero to lead on the river if they have a big ace, like AK. Which is why I really like the check on the river by hero, since hero knows that villian will want to value bet A10-AQ, since hero showed weakness on the river by checking to villain.Does that make sense?
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The only way this river check-raise is worth it is if both villains have a lot of history, and Hero has been known to check-raise bluff on the river. For the villain to value bet and then call a check raise on the end with AT-AQ, there has to be a fairly good chance that Hero has absolute air.The "normal" play is to check-call that river, since it's not like a flush is out of the question. Villain could well have a hand like Th9h through KhQh and if he does we are getting 3bet on the river a lot.

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Yeah, 2p2's new converter does that, and like I said, I just ripped the hand right from them, lol.========================Anyone think AK should just flat out value bet this river?
yes, unless they really know a few things about each other. i have been thinking about this all morning, btw, and have come to the conclusion that the co really sucks (or at the least he screwed this hand up really bad). i have his whole comical thought process in my head..."uh oh, three town. ok, ill cap preflop and then he will fold the flop""good board, ill bet and he'll fold to my 'aces' hehe""uh oh he didnt fold i better check the turn and hope i catch""he didnt bet the river, whats wrong with him, maybe i can bet and get AK to fold, oh **** whats up with that?"however, now that i know he sucks, i just had one of those moments where i learned a little bit more about myself and the ways in which i suck, and i know what i must do now in order to suck less (sorry beavis, sorry butthead).
Damnit, I just typed out a big answer to this and dropped my water bottle on the keyboard and it erased my response. Lets try this again....Depends on the read against the villain. If we think villain will value bet their A10-AQ we can c/r the river. Hero obviously knew villian would value bet here.After villain shows weakness on the turn by checking, villain knows that hero is aware now that villains hand is not that strong. So villain is expecting for hero to value bet his hand on river if hero were to have a bigger ace than villain. Basically by checking on the turn, villain is expecting hero to lead on the river if they have a big ace, like AK. Which is why I really like the check on the river by hero, since hero knows that villian will want to value bet A10-AQ, since hero showed weakness on the river by checking to villain.Does that make sense?
i just read this. check/calling might be good if the CO is aggressive. the way he played this he doesn't seem very aggressive to me. i think the sb should bet against him. i also don't think the CO is value betting a10-aq. see above.
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i also don't think the CO is value betting a10-aq. see above.
I think villain is absolutely value betting his hand on the river. Hero checks three times to him, villain thinks his hand is good, especially after he slowed down on the turn by checking and hero still checks to him on the river. I don't think he was betting the river hoping to get hero off his AK, he was betting b/c he thought he had AK beat.
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Well obv a play like this is read based and the c/r is pretty sexy but how often will the river just get checked through. Also is he more likely to check behind with a small pair than A10-AK? These are the only questions I really have.

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I am coming in a bit late after discussion, but the only really interesting decision imo is the river raise. I think whether you raise or call is pretty player dependent, but there isnt much of an instance where you would fold this.

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i don't like it. i just lead AK for value. i could see KJ and KQ in villain's range. there's the same amount of combinations of AQ and AJ as KQ and KJ. i don't see going for a river c/r making up enough bets out of the hands that vb the river here (and call a c/r) vs. the hands that check behind but call a bet or b/f.this is more an example of "wow look at how sick a play i can make," than it is something that should really be examined. plus the hand is stupid because villain misplayed it. villain's line should be bet, bet, check. it's not close. IT'S NOT CLOSE.horray, i got it right.

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I think villain is absolutely value betting his hand on the river. Hero checks three times to him, villain thinks his hand is good, especially after he slowed down on the turn by checking and hero still checks to him on the river. I don't think he was betting the river hoping to get hero off his AK, he was betting b/c he thought he had AK beat.
its not a value bet when you bet just because you think your hand is good a whole lot of the time. its a "win small pots and lose big pots" bet.
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plus the hand is stupid because villain misplayed it. villain's line should be bet, bet, check. it's not close. IT'S NOT CLOSE.horray, i got it right.
yes, yes you did. i copied the important part. :)i've edited this about a billion times, but i really think that this 2p2 post is masturbatory. he got lucky that the villain took a weird line with AQ, "value raised" him, and got lucky that he wasn't taking a weird line with either a pp or other made hand in order to trick AK into making sure it paid off. the villain here is either playing poorly or mixing up his lines. if it's the former, congrats, victor got a bet off a donkey. if it's the latter, he got lucky that it wasn't one of the hands that beat him mixing things up in order to get paid off.either way, the important part is that the villain is the key player in this hand. it's possible that the villain just fux0red up, or it's possible that the hero either pounced on a donkey or got tripped up by a tricky player taking a weird line to trick him into paying more bets than he otherwise would have with AK.
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it's a good move but it's really not that deep imo. He's hu against a decent player who can value bet ace high there. Just look at pf, it gets capped so he usually has overpair or AJ/KJ+ hands. Since overpairs never check the turn, it's pretty easy to narrow the guy's range. it's just so blatantly obvious the guy has ace high.the check-raise on the river is def. ballsy and creative. I wouldn't pull it everytime otherwise it's easily exploitable. I admit this is something I never really thought to do. Leading out is good move on the river. However there are def. merits to either checking instead of betting...i.e. if the guy is aggressive pre-flop and will cap Khigh hands here.good hand to xpost zach.

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actually navy it's closer than you think in regards to villain's line about bet/check/bet vs bet/bet/checkwhen i had focused more on lhe, i had seen some lines from victor where he'll pull some pretty intense bluffs. Victor is most definitely a competent hu player and despite the board looking pretty safe, he's not going to simply just cr bluff the turn with crap a large amount of the time. He will force you to make tough decisions. If Villain has ace high, he'll want to go to showdown for cheap and induce a bluff w/the turn value check. What if he has king high? He could also be looking for a cheap showdown. King high most certainly will not call a cr on the turn while Ace high calls a decent amount of the time.

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it's just so blatantly obvious the guy has ace high.
i did precisely the villain's line with a boat today in order to get paid off by king high when there was no way i was getting paid otherwise. it's not obvious at all unless the villain plays predictably/bad, imo.
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actually navy it's closer than you think in regards to villain's line about bet/check/bet vs bet/bet/check
you're right, but if i'm villain i'm not that worried about getting c/r on the turn. i can't think of a single hand in victor's range that takes this line here.
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ok you're right in that it's def. possible for villain to mix it upbut victor's line here implies that w/the way the match was going, villain ALWAYS bets his hands on the turn. Otherwise he would simply c/c instead of c/r the river.And fwiw like every regular bets a strong hand here. Let's look at it from villain's eyes. Preflop gets capped and Victor checks. Villain is going to bet his entire range here and victor calls. Villain now puts victor either on pp or Ax, most likely leaning towards ax most pps bet but the flop (but victor may decide c/c is best depending on villain's tendencies). Turn: Villain is never checking a bluff here. Now he's showdown bound. He knows that if victor has a pp or Ax, he's calling down on this harmless board but instead he opts to check because he wants to get to river cheaply. River: Victor checks again instead of betting. Villain decides his Ax here is good enough so he vbets ace high.

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you're right, but if i'm villain i'm not that worried about getting c/r on the turn. i can't think of a single hand in victor's range that takes this line here.
why can't victor wait til the turn to cr jacks+ ? he doesn't have to cr the flop every single time
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Let's look at it from villain's eyes. Preflop gets capped and Victor checks. Villain is going to bet his entire range here and victor calls. Villain now puts victor either on pp or Ax
fwiw, i think victor calls with his entire 3betting range on that flop.
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