turning into a fish (lhe)

[econ_tim 0]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: econ_tim is UTG with [Ah], [5h]. econ_tim calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, BB checks.Flop: (7.50 SB) [2c], [Ac], [Qd] (7 players)BB bets, BB calls, econ_tim calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.Turn: (11.25 BB) [Th] (5 players)BB checks, econ_tim checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Button bets, BB calls, econ_tim calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.River: (16.25 BB) [2h] (5 players)BB bets, BB calls.Final Pot: 25.25 BBOn the turn I thought pot was too big to fold. Was I wrong?

[creepy20 0]

i think I would of folded to the bet on the turn. I know the pots big but I think your beat.

[amarillotg 0]

On the turn I thought pot was too big to fold. Was I wrong?

well you have to figure at best you have 3 outs to 2 pair (3 fives) which might not be good enough to win anyways. i hate folding in big pots when i have a piece of it but i fold that turn.

[princeof56k 0]

This reminds me a lot of the hand someone posted yesterday about A3 suited. The flop was a lot more coordinated there but here is a similar hand. We have an Ace with a weak kicker, first to act led the flop, and we are next with a large field behind us. So I think you either need to raise or fold the flop. Raising here is ok since you were UTG and most people should think that means you have a strong hand. However when 2 people cold call your raise and then the button 3-bets, you need to starting thinking you are behind here. I dont think he is raising a draw here for a free card since he runs the risk of you capping it. IMO, since he knows everyone is going to call his bet and it might get capped, he is sending the message that he has a strong hand and wants to get paid. I would call his raise and then check/fold the turn. And BTW, I dont like calling the BBs bet on the river. The board paired and he led into you (the first flop raiser) and the button (the agressor for the whole hand). You might be behind both of these guys and you run the risk of the button raising.

[Jadaki 0]

I don't really like your flop reraise. With that many people in the pot you have to think you are outkicked because almost everyone at these tables calls preflop with any ace.Once you got those people cold calling 2 bets and a raise behind you, you have to know your behind here. I just doubt they are all on draws.

[HtotheNootch 0]

A lot of times I muck that UTG. It keeps me out of situations like these. However, it looks like this is a loose passive table so maybe it's not horrible.

[Actuary 3]

fold the flop.weak ace5c is tarnishedno flush drawsOOPbet by sb, who knows what's left.Fold > Raise > Call.only argument not to fold: pot looking nice and potentially big.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Hmmm.The only thing I can even see debating is the preflop limp. A2s UTG is a fold at all but the LOOSEST of loose tables, and A5s is situational for me. If this hand is a sampling of what the table is like, then obviously a call was more than justified.I can't see any other way to play it post-flop than the way you did. On the flop, you can't just fold to a bet from SB because you're scared the pot is so multiway you're already behind with TPNK, and you can't fold to a 3-bet when it's a reasonably safe call and you're already in for 2 bets.Checking the turn to the raiser is good, and folding top pair to ONE BET on the turn would be catastrophically bad as well.And I think the river is a fine laydown for all the action.So if there's a leak in the post-flop play, I'm right there with you.

[Actuary 3]

I can't see any other way to play it post-flop than the way you did. On the flop, you can't just fold to a bet from SB because you're scared the pot is so multiway you're already behind with TPNK, and you can't fold to a 3-bet when it's a reasonably safe call and you're already in for 2 bets. he's in it for 2 because he raised, when he's likley dominated and in bad trouble with draws...only 2 clean outs.then..FOLD the TURN. One of those 5 players has a better Ace, and someone likely has two Clubs.again:FOLD THE FLOP

[econ_tim 0]

FOLD THE FLOP

I don't see how folding the flop can be right. The BB could be betting with a Queen, two clubs, a pocket pair, or an ace.By raising, I may be able to fold some aces with better kickers.Even when it's 3-bet, I have a lot of ways to at least split the pot with a better ace.

[BeanGW 0]

I like the flop raise myself. BB could bet w/ anything and you do a better job of gaining information on the other players holdings, protecting your hand, maybe even getting an A-6 or A-7 to fold (although in SSHE I think that is pretty unlikely).I'm usually folding the turn though... the 10 could complete some straights (K-J), make some two pairs, and in a field of this size, you may already be drawing to no outs.

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

Top pair no kicker has to be good a microscopic amount of times for this hand to be wildly profitable if we play it 1000 times.You fold top pair in a 7 way pot for one bet? Just calling is obviously worse than raising, so do you fold your 2 bets for the third small bet with all those cold callers? If you have only 2 clean kicker outs to win the hand, plus implied odds, I still think it's correct to continue. Do you fold top pair getting 11:1 when the only draw that completes is a gutshot?Because I don't. That's just me though...

[guinevar 0]

I am folding preflop in this hand.If for some reason I decided to limp UTG (which would depend on the aggression level of the table) , I am also raising the flop just like time did.When I'm three bet I go :shock: :roll: .Depending on the player I might call the turn, hoping no club fell for the obvious draw. I am also calling/folding the river where tim did because off the donkey button who caught his third 2.

[Actuary 3]

fold the flop.

I'll cite a hand from SSHE if I get home....when second to act folds a pair of Aces..after being bet into..because the hand is weak and many players left to actWe are wasting bets a huge majority of the time.We have probably 2 outs.3-4 way, raising makes sense...not 7 way.We don't play A5s from UTG to get into a multi-way pot with TPnK...we missed our flush draw chance and should go away quietly with this flop. The raise behind us really sux..now we are putting in 1.5 BB with a bad hand. Now if this was 4 handed..it would be different.TJ_Eckleburg : I tend to think we are worse off..not better...because it's multi-way. Much less equity..than we would have 3-way with this hand.Yes, I fold the Turn..if I'm still in it..for 13:1 because I have 2.5 (maybe)outs...We don't have the best hand 95% of the time..so we need the right odds

[Actuary 3]

actually..it's in TOP pg 42-43.Very similar...Top Pair...flush draw onb board, back door str8, 2nd to act after a lead out and many to act behind us.It is almost identical!Except are kicker sux more here...FOLD THE FLOPdisclaimer: is TOP not applicable ot SSHE ?

[Actuary 3]

dup deleted

[TJ_Eckleburg 0]

I think your points are very valid.I agree that our equity goes down not up as more people see this flop.I believe TOP is at least somewhat applicable because of the intrinsic carryover between tournament and cash game poker.Here's my point...We have top pair, and 2 clean outs to improve. Compared to how big this pot's going to get, plus our chances of being good right now... I think the betting is justified. 11 BB on the turn.

[Actuary 3]

this was a cash game example from TOP, "Theory of Poker" Sklansky.just for clarification.BIG KEY: It will only get really big when we are beat.

[econ_tim 0]

Regarding the TOP example, I think one key difference is that here we can't give the SB credit for having a hand that is actually strong enough to bet into a large field.I think in a game were most players make critical post flop errors like calling 2 cold when they have nothing there will be enough overlay to continue with this hand. In tougher games, people will have better holdings when they see the flop and they won't make enough postflop mistakes to make the hand profitable.

[Actuary 3]

Tim,I disagree.this pot only gets big if we are beaten.Two pair, sets, flushes, better kickers!!..that's all that will raise this pot.I wouldn't assume the sb is weak..betting into a full field.

[akishore 0]

this is so dreadfully similar to kdawg's A-3 suited hand.there are two key differences:1. the flop isn't as coordinated. this will still be an action flop, but to a slightly lesser extent.2. we have no backdoor draw. having the club on the flop in kdawg's hand made a slight difference.since these two points almost cancel each other out (the first supports raising instead of folding, the second supports folding instead of raising), i would say that the decision between folding/calling/raising is way damn close.i'm going to agree with actuary and say folding on the flop is probably the best play by a slight margin.aseem

[econ_tim 0]

this is so dreadfully similar to kdawg's A-3 suited hand.

You're right. I went and reread that thread, seems like a split decision there too.Let's say the flop is close.What about the turn? I am a total donk now?

[akishore 0]

What about the turn?  I am a total donk now?

yeah. :? the pot's big, but this isn't heads-up, so you can't just call down in doubt. you have almost no outs to improve when you're behind (two ace outs that are clean maybe 25% of the time--that's generous--and three five outs that are clean maybe 50% of the time, for a total of 2 partial outs), and you're likely to be paying off better hands by showdown if you decide to go to showdown (two clubs, three broadway, lone pairs that have 5 outs to improve on you, etc., etc., etc.).i really don't think you can take this hand to showdown. i would fold on the flop if it was ever two cold to me, and definitely check/fold the turn UI otherwise.aseem

[econ_tim 0]

you have almost no outs to improve when you're behind

What happened to all my hidden outs? I thought the deuce on the river was a pretty good card for me. Maybe I was counting too many outs.

[Actuary 3]

you have almost no outs to improve when you're behind

What happened to all my hidden outs? I thought the deuce on the river was a pretty good card for me. Maybe I was counting too many outs.

good point.so maybe add a few outs for pot splitting with a 10 or 2 sans club...oh..nevemind..I folded the flop.