Where Is The Gamemanship?

[fleung22 1]

ArticleWhere is The Gamesmanship? A Controversial Hand at the PokerStars EPT BarcelonaSeptember 11, 2009, Matthew ParvisA controversial hand took place this week at the PokerStars European Poker Tour Barcelona that got me thinking. Where do we draw the line between the actual rules of the game and the gamesmanship or unwritten rules between poker players?First, lets have a look at how the hand played out according to the PokerNews Live Update team:A huge crowd gathered just before the break to watch a large pot between Tobias Reinkemeier and Roland de Wolfe.The board read {7-Clubs}{9-Hearts}{4-Hearts}{10-Clubs}{A-Hearts} with Reinkemeier calling a 95,000 bet on the river. Neither player wanted to show their hands, but de Wolfe eventually said, "King-high.""Well, show it then," Reinkemeier said. Highly reluctant, De Wolfe eventually flashed the {K-Clubs} before pushing his cards toward the muck beneath the burn cards.Reinkemeier then turned over his missed {Q-Clubs} {6-Clubs} and de Wolfe immediately went to retrieve his cards from the muck and turn over his actually ahead {K-Clubs} {8-Diamonds}. A ruling from Thomas Kremser was quickly called for as the crowd grew around the table with each player claiming he won the pot. De Wolfe claimed that his cards were retrievable from the muck; Reinkemeier disagreed.Kremser spoke to the dealer for a few minutes before ruling in Reinkemeier's favour as de Wolfe shook his head. The pot was then awarded to Reinkemeier while de Wolfe slips to below 200,000.Knowing the rules fairly well myself, I thought it best to get a second opinion from famed tournament director Matt Savage, who told me "First, I do believe the ruling was correct and Roland did need to show both of his cards to win the pot. Roland is a pro and should know this is the case and should know better. Tobias had every right to see his cards first in this case and had Roland tabled both than he wins the pot regardless of the dealer mucking them or not."Savage went on to say, "I would add that if Roland's unseen card could have been identifiable at all, I would have retrieved it and made it a live hand. I would also have had a talk with Tobias that while he won the pot I do not want to see this behavior from him in the future or a penalty could be warranted."It's this "type of behavior" that bothers me and in turn should bother all poker players. Every sport has its own set of rules, but they also have their own set of unwritten rules, which, as a player of the game, you are expected to follow.In baseball, it's never OK to break up a no-hitter with a bunt. Also, you never swing at a 3-0 pitch when your team has a comfortable lead. In football, every coach knows it's not OK to call for an onside kick when your team is well ahead on the scoreboard. In basketball, it's never OK to run down the court after a team has conceded defeat and dunk the ball, or even take another shot for that matter. In poker, I feel that it's never OK to see that you lost a hand and then do everything in your power to toy with the rules after the fact to win the pot.Poker players should abide by their own set of unwritten rules and one of them should be: If you see your hand has been beaten by your opponent with no action remaining, then let the pot be awarded to that player. Although de Wolf absolutely should have shown both cards, when Reinkemeier saw that his queen-high was trumped by de Wolfe's king-high, he should have had enough honor and respect for the game to muck his own hand then and there, allowing the pot to be awarded to de Wolfe. If de Wolf mucked in that spot, and tried to retrieve his hand prior to seeing Reinkemeier's hand, then all bets are off, but a king was shown, and it was the best hand.Why be "that guy" who tries to manipulate the rules in your favor? Why not man-up, see that you are beaten and do the right thing? I understand there will be plenty of people who disagree with me here, but we shouldn't let stereotypes of poker players being greedy, selfish, angle-shooting people be proven true. This type of behavior does nothing but harm our game, and the players who play it.I have no doubt that many poker players do follow a set of unwritten rules, but this should be a wake-up call for some of you out there that don't. Poker is a game and although it is played for great sums of money, that is no reason for not following the unwritten gamesmanship rules.

[bdc30 0]

I have no problem with his actions, right up to the point where he felt the need to show the Qhi and make a big scene of it. If he doesn't do that, we never read about this hand and nobody thinks he's a dick.Other guy refuses to show, mucks hand. Winner taps table, dealer pushes him the pot, winner slides cards to dealer face down, gg. If the player who mucked first asks to see the guy's hand, that's his problem.

[mb2k 0]

I have no problem with his actions, right up to the point where he felt the need to show the Qhi and make a big scene of it. If he doesn't do that, we never read about this hand and nobody thinks he's a dick.Other guy refuses to show, mucks hand. Winner taps table, dealer pushes him the pot, winner slides cards to dealer face down, gg. If the player who mucked first asks to see the guy's hand, that's his problem.

Agreed 100%, that is how it should've gone down, and that is perfectly within the rules.I also agree with this:

Poker players should abide by their own set of unwritten rules and one of them should be: If you see your hand has been beaten by your opponent with no action remaining, then let the pot be awarded to that player.

He is beaten, quite simply bceause he has the worst poker hand. And more importantly, he knows he is beaten because the other guy showed him. That should be it right there. imho.

[MNmiracleCJS 0]

Tobias clearly tells Roland to turn both of his cards up after the hand Roland doesnt even want to show one but flips the Kc before sliding his hand towards the muck and waiting forever to release it. Personally I don't get what the big deal is if I have to show a bluff. He released his cards in the muck end of story. Even after he shows the king if you watch the video tobias still asks him to turn over both cards. Too bad so sad IMO maybe I'm a dick for thinking this but If you dont have the stomach to show what everyone already knows is a bluff then the very fact that he "called the bluff" should be reason enough to award him the pot.Whether or not he should have shown the Queen high is a different story, but it certainly would be tempting to have that kind of opportunity to just tilt the hell out of a pro opponent at a large live tourney.

[mb2k 0]

Too bad so sad IMO maybe I'm a dick for thinking this but If you dont have the stomach to show what everyone already knows is a bluff then the very fact that he "called the bluff" should be reason enough to award him the pot.

Interesting way of thinking about it.You're giving more credit for the 'read' than for the actual cards involved. Its almost as if you're saying Reinkemeier played better poker on that hand so he should get the pot. Only problem with that is that his read can't've been that accurate if he thought his Q high was good enough.

[fleung22 1]

I have no problem with his actions, right up to the point where he felt the need to show the Qhi and make a big scene of it. If he doesn't do that, we never read about this hand and nobody thinks he's a dick.Other guy refuses to show, mucks hand. Winner taps table, dealer pushes him the pot, winner slides cards to dealer face down, gg. If the player who mucked first asks to see the guy's hand, that's his problem.

FYI EPT rules require winning player on showdown to show hole cards so it is not optional.

[MNmiracleCJS 0]

Interesting way of thinking about it.You're giving more credit for the 'read' than for the actual cards involved. Its almost as if you're saying Reinkemeier played better poker on that hand so he should get the pot. Only problem with that is that his read can't've been that accurate if he thought his Q high was good enough.

accurate enough to know roland probably had air. From what i understand Roland has a habit of mucking his bluffs like this. If he assumes Roland has air than only K high would beat him essentially. obviously he can't be completely sure otherwise the obvious move is to raise to force him to muck instead of calling. As far as im concerned this is all on Roland.

[Lrgetrout 1]

The only problem I have with any of this is Matt Savage's contention that if the unshown card was at all identifiable, he would make the hand live and award it to de Wolfe.Reinkemeier's behavior, while certainly not sporting, is not unsporting either. It is completely within the rules of the game, and I would hope that if I were in an identical situation (even in de Wolfe's chair), that the TD/floor would rule exactly the same way.

[Stiles2004 0]

Kind of reminds me of when A-Rod called for a popup while rounding the bases and the ball dropped in between playersIt's not against the rules, but he got a ball thrown at his back next time he came into townClearly this dude needs to get slowrolled by Roland at some point and everyone is even

[NoSup4U 0]

Pokernoob posted about this. It's completely within his rights to show the bluff, but he does feel bad about the fist pump celebration and apologized for it. He also said he and Roland are a friendly terms and talked about the hand both at the table and during the break shortly afterwards.The correct ruling was made, Roland got pwned, all is well in the world :)Here is the video btw:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr2agX80ZyEMark

[Figger 0]

After watching the video, I think de Wolf was foolish for not showing both cards, but when he did push them toward the muck, the dealer placed his hands on the cards and pushed them back as they touched the outer layer, making sure they never truely entered the muck. I think the ruling was incorrect.

[NoSup4U 0]

After watching the video, I think de Wolf was foolish for not showing both cards, but when he did push them toward the muck, the dealer placed his hands on the cards and pushed them back as they touched the outer layer, making sure they never truely entered the muck. I think the ruling was incorrect.

Cards in muck:The dealer doesn't get to decide for Roland if he wants to muck or not. Roland mucks, end of story.Mark

[sKIjaKuDa 0]

After watching the video, I think de Wolf was foolish for not showing both cards, but when he did push them toward the muck, the dealer placed his hands on the cards and pushed them back as they touched the outer layer, making sure they never truely entered the muck. I think the ruling was incorrect.

I thought that was interesting as well as he not only tried to stop Roland from mucking them but also turned both over before Tobias did the whole "yes!" fist pump.Ultimately Roland mucked them on his own even against the dealer's attempts and paid the consequences. If he even would have listened to Tobias when he was asking to see both, he would have tabled the winning hand.burrrrrrnnnnnnnn

[Figger 0]

Cards in muck:The dealer doesn't get to decide for Roland if he wants to muck or not. Roland mucks, end of story.Mark

Well, in chess, the move is not over until the piece is released. Frame forward and you'll notice the dealer then puts his hands on the cards, both have their hands on the cards and then de Wolfe releases and the dealer pushes them back and flips them. There is no dispute that those are his cards. In the true sense of the rules it may have been a mucked hand, but Reinkemeier should be taken out back and caned. If that's how you want poker players to be represented, like the bully's who steal kids lunch money, then bravo, the game has lost all integrity and is reduced to a bunch of used car salesman back stabbing to make their next sale.

[NoSup4U 0]

Well, in chess, the move is not over until the piece is released. Frame forward and you'll notice the dealer then puts his hands on the cards, both have their hands on the cards and then de Wolfe releases and the dealer pushes them back and flips them. There is no dispute that those are his cards.

This isn't chess, and nobody is disputing that those are his cards. How about we apply poker rules to the situation and not chess rules. What is relevant is did Roland show his hand (no) and did he muck (yes). Showing one card is not tabling your hand. The dealer does not get to decide if Roland wants to table his hand.

In the true sense of the rules it may have been a mucked hand, but Reinkemeier should be taken out back and caned. If that's how you want poker players to be represented, like the bully's who steal kids lunch money, then bravo, the game has lost all integrity and is reduced to a bunch of used car salesman back stabbing to make their next sale.

Other than acting like a douche with his celebration (which should have no bearing on who wins or loses the hand) what did Reinkemeier do wrong? He called, Roland mucked, the dealer pulled Roland's hand out of the muck and flipped it over, the floor ruled correctly that Roland had mucked and the dealer was WTF out of his mind for pulling his cards out of the muck and flipping them over, and Reinkemeier was awarded the pot.I don't want poker players represented as jerks who steal kid's lunch money at all. And like I said, Reinkemeier apologized for his celebration. But outside of that, all he did was totally pwn Roland's soul, and was correctly awarded the pot. Mark

[Balloon guy 158]

It should be a rule that the last player to initiate action is required to show first.You bet the flop, I call, then we check it down...you show first.Of course class dictates that you be allowed to say: "I missed" and let me show a winning hand etc., but when both players don't want to show, then the dealer should be able to point at the last action player and say:"Show"Too many delayed showings making the game slow.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Cards in muck:The dealer doesn't get to decide for Roland if he wants to muck or not. Roland mucks, end of story.Mark

This isn't chess, and nobody is disputing that those are his cards. How about we apply poker rules to the situation and not chess rules. What is relevant is did Roland show his hand (no) and did he muck (yes). Showing one card is not tabling your hand. The dealer does not get to decide if Roland wants to table his hand.Other than acting like a douche with his celebration (which should have no bearing on who wins or loses the hand) what did Reinkemeier do wrong? He called, Roland mucked, the dealer pulled Roland's hand out of the muck and flipped it over, the floor ruled correctly that Roland had mucked and the dealer was WTF out of his mind for pulling his cards out of the muck and flipping them over, and Reinkemeier was awarded the pot.I don't want poker players represented as jerks who steal kid's lunch money at all. And like I said, Reinkemeier apologized for his celebration. But outside of that, all he did was totally pwn Roland's soul, and was correctly awarded the pot. Mark

Yeah. All of this.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I keep mis-reading this thread title as "Where is Gmanshade"

[fighter 4]

Well, in chess, the move is not over until the piece is released. Frame forward and you'll notice the dealer then puts his hands on the cards, both have their hands on the cards and then de Wolfe releases and the dealer pushes them back and flips them. There is no dispute that those are his cards.

Keeping with the chess example. He let go of his cards face down over the betting line. The fact the dealer then flips them over means about as much as a j'adoube.

[JoeWalsh 0]

It should be a rule that the last player to initiate action is required to show first.You bet the flop, I call, then we check it down...you show first.Of course class dictates that you be allowed to say: "I missed" and let me show a winning hand etc., but when both players don't want to show, then the dealer should be able to point at the last action player and say:"Show"Too many delayed showings making the game slow.

I've never played anywhere where that isn't the rule. People tend to just say/muck to speed play up. If you are beat, you are beat just get on with it.What I don't get is why, as this whole play was about being a stickler for the rules, when Q high called Roland we weren't required to see both of his cards once he had shown one. We could identify both of his cards as they weren't released into the muck and the whole argument is about anal rules over etiquette.

[looshle 6]

In baseball, it's never OK to break up a no-hitter with a bunt. Also, you never swing at a 3-0 pitch when your team has a comfortable lead. In football, every coach knows it's not OK to call for an onside kick when your team is well ahead on the scoreboard. In basketball, it's never OK to run down the court after a team has conceded defeat and dunk the ball, or even take another shot for that matter. In poker, I feel that it's never OK to see that you lost a hand and then do everything in your power to toy with the rules after the fact to win the pot.nice examples lol. All the sports examples include the team showing grace bc theyve already won. I don't think this is even that bad, you need to show your cards to win the pot. If Roland flips his cards over, he wins. He's supposed to. He didn't want to so he loses.

[Figger 0]

This isn't chess, and nobody is disputing that those are his cards. How about we apply poker rules to the situation and not chess rules. What is relevant is did Roland show his hand (no) and did he muck (yes). Showing one card is not tabling your hand. The dealer does not get to decide if Roland wants to table his hand.Other than acting like a douche with his celebration (which should have no bearing on who wins or loses the hand) what did Reinkemeier do wrong? He called, Roland mucked, the dealer pulled Roland's hand out of the muck and flipped it over, the floor ruled correctly that Roland had mucked and the dealer was WTF out of his mind for pulling his cards out of the muck and flipping them over, and Reinkemeier was awarded the pot.I don't want poker players represented as jerks who steal kid's lunch money at all. And like I said, Reinkemeier apologized for his celebration. But outside of that, all he did was totally pwn Roland's soul, and was correctly awarded the pot. Mark

Sooooo, you admit he acted like a douche?????? J/K.......Uncle !!

[Merby 3]

I have no problem with his actions, right up to the point where he felt the need to show the Qhi and make a big scene of it. If he doesn't do that, we never read about this hand and nobody thinks he's a dick.Other guy refuses to show, mucks hand. Winner taps table, dealer pushes him the pot, winner slides cards to dealer face down, gg. If the player who mucked first asks to see the guy's hand, that's his problem.

A lot of places have a rule where a hand must be shown down at showdown in order to win a pot (to prevent chip dumping).Roland bet, was called, and chose to muck without tabling, even when his opponent urged him to table his hand. The ruling was correct.

[GWCGWC 83]

A lot of places have a rule where a hand must be shown down at showdown in order to win a pot (to prevent chip dumping).Roland bet, was called, and chose to muck without tabling, even when his opponent urged him to table his hand. The ruling was correct.

This is exactly right.

[kingcon31 0]

I really can't believe I haven't read more negative posts about Tobias. I'll give you the ruling isn't bad, it's probably rules wise correct. However, as Matt Savage pointed out by saying if he could retrieve the right cards he would make the hand live, there is a time to live by common sense and logic. The muck isn't some magic death hole that when your cards touch it they disappear forever. The cards touched the edge of the muck and the dealer stopped them and flipped them over. If you throw the best hand in the muck after seeing the worst hand tabled thats one thing and you should be punished, but in this situation Roland should get the pot because Tobias is a POS.The reason Roland mucked is because he "knew" he was beat. Roland showed he had K high and showed his king. If Tobias wants to see Roland's other card it's simple say nice hand or you got it and Roland will show the other card. Since Tobias didn't do this Roland interpreted this as Tobias has the best hand, and Roland didn't want to give away any more info. Once again Roland probably should have showed his other card, but I've never seen a situation like this where the person in Tobias spot didn't have Roland beat. I think its pretty obvious Tobias wanted to scam his way to a win in that pot and he is a scum of a poker player. Thats actually pathetic if you cant beat him just cheat him. Well done Tobias, he is lucky that Roland isn't a much of a hot tempered player because I bet there plenty of people who would have attacked him outside the casino, and some who wouldn't be able to stay calm that long and attacked him in the casino.