TJ_Eckleburg 0 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 I think my biggest leak as a limit player deals with interrelations between the concepts pertaining to "flopping overcards as the preflop raiser," "play super-aggressive short-handed," and "don't lose too much money in a small pot with a marginal hand."When these values are at odds with each other I tend to lose a lot of money.Sorry, converter doesn't want to convert Villain's action.Hero is button with [Qs Jd]All fold to CO who limps, Hero raises to $1, blinds fold, CO calls.Pot is 2.75I saw the folds and had planned to steal if CO folded too. Since he just limped, I figured the raise is okay.I have no illusions as to how weak QJo is. I fold it in EP, sometimes MP, and never ever not ever call raises with it. But for position and all the folds, I think the raise is okay.Flop: [8c 6h 2s]CO checks, Hero bets, CO calls.Pot is 3.75 - rake If you ever want me to bet... just check it to me heads up in position when I've raised preflop. I autobet almost 100% of the time in this situation (in position, I raised preflop, and it's checked to me).Is that bad? That flop is a whole lot of nothing, and it's not unreasonable to assume he has K high, A high, or even part of that.Turn: [8c 6h 2s] [8d]CO checks, Hero bets, CO calls.Pot is 5.75 - rakeI'll also bet almost 100% of the time if what I judge to be a blank falls off, and I'm heads up, in position, and Villain check-called the previous street. My way of thinking is that my fold equity is only increasing. Plus, in my head I'm just a better player than everyone under the sun so I probably had the better starting hand, better outs (not here though), and better luck through aggression, because chance favors the prepared mind.But I'm not stupidly maniacal. I had every intention of folding to a lead bet or a check-raise.River: {8c 6h 2s 8d} [4d]CO checks, Hero... ?The pot is officially microscopic, and it's probably half my money after the rake. I don't like checking now, and I don't like betting now. When that's the case, I've usually made an earlier mistake somewhere.Thanks guys. Results may shock you... stay tuned.No reads... the table is standardly LPPish. Link to post Share on other sites
Absolute 0 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 please dont bet the riveri wouldnt bet the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Bad situation all around. Betting is not going to get a fold from your villain. Since you are most likely beat, this is not your best option. I don't see any value in bluffing here.I say check. When you can't value bet or bluff for +EV, checking is best. Link to post Share on other sites
TJ_Eckleburg 0 Posted August 3, 2005 Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 Preflop and flop okay? Link to post Share on other sites
Jordan 1 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 you beat 79!!!!!!1 Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Preflop and flop are standard. Turn is questionable...depends on your opponent. I think I would bet there. Link to post Share on other sites
Briguy 0 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 bleh. Bet/fold would be my line, if I let this get to the river. I hate betting with Q-high, but I equally hate checking with Q-high. You beat exactly two possible drawing hands: 79 and T9 (T9 is a stretch). You lose to small pairs and any overcards better than QJ, or anything that hit the board. Is this one of those cases where a bluff is the only conceivable way to win the hand? Such that betting the river is -EV, but checking is slightly more -EV? Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 bleh. Bet/fold would be my line, if I let this get to the river. I hate betting with Q-high, but I equally hate checking with Q-high. You beat exactly two possible drawing hands: 79 and T9 (T9 is a stretch). You lose to small pairs and any overcards better than QJ, or anything that hit the board. Is this one of those cases where a bluff is the only conceivable way to win the hand? Such that betting the river is -EV, but checking is slightly more -EV?I don't like the bet because there is no point. If you have him beat (if he was on a draw) he folds, so you win no extra bets. If he has anything like A or K high or a low pair he calls or raises and you lose one more bet than you should have. Link to post Share on other sites
TJ_Eckleburg 0 Posted August 3, 2005 Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 please dont bet the riveri wouldnt bet the turn.*giggles* My thinking:a) fish can fold riversb) I have to have fold equity because I've bet every street up to the riverc) I most likely can't win if I check.I bet, Villain folds. Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Someone needs to back me up here. The fact that villain folded means you almost certainly would have won anyways, so it's not like the bet did much for you. If villain calls you most likely lose that extra bet.Does this make sense? Link to post Share on other sites
TJ_Eckleburg 0 Posted August 3, 2005 Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 Someone needs to back me up here. The fact that villain folded means you almost certainly would have won anyways, so it's not like the bet did much for you. If villain calls you most likely lose that extra bet.Does this make sense?...Well... I saw his avatar's eyeball twitch.I see your point about the bet having no value though. Okay. Don't bet stupid rivers. Got it. Do we have a consensus for the turn though? Link to post Share on other sites
speedz99 145 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Do we have a consensus for the turn though?Looks good to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Briguy 0 Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Speed, the bet is not for value, it's for fold equity alone. TJ probably doesn't have the best hand here, but he may fold a paired 6, or an A-high. I still hate everything about this hand, and probably give up on the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
creepy20 0 Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 I find myself doing the same thing as you TJ a lot,...only I lose almost all the time on the river to a small pair or A high. I think i'm going to start giving up on the turn in those situations...now what if TJ had AQ or AK..keep betting or check it down Link to post Share on other sites
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