$3.30 Rebuy 180 Man Ft Utg +1 Open Shove Range?

[CorvairShaggy 5]

First, this is my first big cash in a MTT SNG. Played about 10 or so 180-mans, so I am proud of myself. OK now, since I have never been here before Final Table ($3.30 w/ Rebuy 180 man Stars), I was confused on how to handle a few opening hands. It seemed that once everyone was ITM, things loosened up and it really was just a pick your spot and shove. I Did the $3.30 buy in, and did 1 add on at $3, but never did any re-buys, so therefore I only had $6.30 invested. ITM was $18.xx, so that would have been fine, but I decided to stick to tight play. Once at FT, I got 2 hands in a row, and I folded them, but what do you do with A9 and A5 un-suited UTG and UTG +1, when you are 88k in chips (5/7) and the blinds are 3000/6000/600 ??? FT pay structure was ~$23 9th, ~$35 8th, etc. 1 player got knocked out by the time the next orbit came, and then I got A3 unsuited UTG+1 again. I chose to open shove. Was this bad or just standard??? Also, are you stealing from button when you are 5/7 on button, when SB and BB have you covered about 1.5-1 with Kx unsuited?? I thought no, but if yes, just open shove here??Moooooooooooraaawwwr.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em ($3.00+$0.30) t3500/t7000 ante t700 - 6 playersBB: t233,270 UTG: t201,287 UTG+1: t81,912 (Hero)CO: t132,596 Button: t94,906 SB: t66,529 Preflop: (t14,700) Hero is UTG+1 with (6 players)UTG folds, Hero raises to t81212 and is all-in, CO raises to t131896 and is all-in, 2 folds, BB calls t124896Flop: (t352,704) (3 players)Turn: (t352,704) (3 players)River: (t352,704) (3 players)BB showed , and won (352704) with a pair of KingsHero showed , and lost with high card AceHero finished the tournament in 6th place and received $75.90CO showed :club:, and lost with high card AceCO finished the tournament in 5th place and received $98.67BB won t352704

[XXEddie 0]

I think it's def shove or fold. With fold >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shove.If you were around 6-7bbs I think shoving any ace 6handed is a must. But I think this is just spewing. I'd rather open shove 22 or 65s here.

[rbakken2504 0]

The particular hand you posted, i think is a fold, its super close tho because of your stack size compared to the rest of the table, download sngwiz and input the hand to find out, im too lazy to open it up at the moment lol, oh and make sure you use the actual hand history so it uses ICM. In turbos you need to be shoving quite a lot, if it gets folded to you on the button and the blinds stacks are anything but under 5 BB's, your are shoving a huge range, like 70-80%, so yes Kx is a shove on buttonAs for the A9 and A5, it depends on the other stacks at your table as well, A9 is probably a shove, A5 probably a fold....again download sngwiz to learn ICM and improve your push/fold game.

[rrumsey 0]

easy fold pre. For starters we have to get by too many people. secondly, for a lot of people calling range we have one over, thats not good. third, Sb should be open shoving a ton here. 4th, we dont gain enough % to our stack when we do take the blinds down to justify the risk. Stay patient. your heart is in the right place to wanna open shove a lot, but we have far too many BB to consider this. easy fold.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

easy fold pre. For starters we have to get by too many people. secondly, for a lot of people calling range we have one over, thats not good. third, Sb should be open shoving a ton here. 4th, we dont gain enough % to our stack when we do take the blinds down to justify the risk. Stay patient. your heart is in the right place to wanna open shove a lot, but we have far too many BB to consider this. easy fold.

I was kinda leaning toward fold, but guys were shoving KJ off, 67 suited, J10 off, etc. and that is why I tried. I know better now but at least I made a few $$ learning in the process. Now, if they were paying attention, and I was playing tight, was it a correct play for CO to go all-in with A9d??? Even if everyone folded, is that good enough to risk 88k? He would be chip leader or close enough if he wins, but if he lost then he would be crippled.

[rrumsey 0]

I was kinda leaning toward fold, but guys were shoving KJ off, 67 suited, J10 off, etc. and that is why I tried. I know better now but at least I made a few $$ learning in the process. Now, if they were paying attention, and I was playing tight, was it a correct play for CO to go all-in with A9d??? Even if everyone folded, is that good enough to risk 88k? He would be chip leader or close enough if he wins, but if he lost then he would be crippled.

we dont need that variance when we feel like we have a huge edge on the field. yes you may get shown kj, but given your stack size do we need to risk it given we still have a stack north of 10BB and know villains are going to spazz out when we have strong hands?

[rbakken2504 0]

I was kinda leaning toward fold, but guys were shoving KJ off, 67 suited, J10 off, etc. and that is why I tried. I know better now but at least I made a few $$ learning in the process. Now, if they were paying attention, and I was playing tight, was it a correct play for CO to go all-in with A9d??? Even if everyone folded, is that good enough to risk 88k? He would be chip leader or close enough if he wins, but if he lost then he would be crippled.

This is the turbo rebuy correct? if so, CO call against you (tight) was incorrect, but he was most likely multitabling and was on autopilot, and against a random it is a correct call. This is assuming this is a turbo anyway...SNGWiz offers a free trial, i cant remember how many days exactly, but use it to learn these end game situations, especially in turbos, cuz there are lots of good regs grinding tons of these a day, and your push/fold game has to be better than theirs, and most of the regs push/fold is very good. If you dont want to download Wiz, i'll input it a little later and post the ranges for ya when i get back home.

[rbakken2504 0]

we dont need that variance when we feel like we have a huge edge on the field. yes you may get shown kj, but given your stack size do we need to risk it given we still have a stack north of 10BB and know villains are going to spazz out when we have strong hands?

If this is the turbo 180 man, variance is unavoidable....its so massively high in these, and the fields, even the $3.30's are infested with regs....if this was regular speed it is an easy fold, turbo its a lot closer play....but i still think youre right...fold>shove

[CorvairShaggy 5]

This is the turbo rebuy correct? if so, CO call against you (tight) was incorrect, but he was most likely multitabling and was on autopilot, and against a random it is a correct call. This is assuming this is a turbo anyway...SNGWiz offers a free trial, i cant remember how many days exactly, but use it to learn these end game situations, especially in turbos, cuz there are lots of good regs grinding tons of these a day, and your push/fold game has to be better than theirs, and most of the regs push/fold is very good. If you dont want to download Wiz, i'll input it a little later and post the ranges for ya when i get back home.

I will get SNGWiz tonight when I get home and try it out. Don't know if he was multitabling or not. Forgot to check on that. Usually I check that at cash game tables because style of play is different with mulit-table players than 1 table at a time players. Thanks for the info. I am going to try to play just these for the next week or so and see how it goes.Thanks!!!!

[rbakken2504 0]

I will get SNGWiz tonight when I get home and try it out. Don't know if he was multitabling or not. Forgot to check on that. Usually I check that at cash game tables because style of play is different with mulit-table players than 1 table at a time players. Thanks for the info. I am going to try to play just these for the next week or so and see how it goes.Thanks!!!!

These are great tournies for volume and improving your hourly rate, just gotta remember to not be results oriented, the variance is super sick in these, its pretty common to have a 50 buy-in downswing every month, even if your playing perfect push/fold. The good news is winning one makes up for the gross downswongs. I'll post one of the best players on the internet at these turbo's graph so you can see the sick swings, notice the huge downswings, and massive upswings as well...these are mostly turbo 45 mans, with some turbo 180 mans sprinkled in, buy-ins mostly the $12's, with some $36's sprinkled in and some stuff in between.Notable Downswings: games 0-70ish, 125-170ish, 240-290, 550-800Notable Upswongs: games 170-240, 270-360, 420-560One other thing, its super easy to start tilting in these, so its a good idea to run every tourney through SNGWiz after each session and see where you shouldve been shoving and weren't and vice versa....also a great place to post for these ( if the trial for SNGWiz expires and you cant afford the hit to the bankroll to buy it atm ) is twoplustwo.com in the STT Tournament Section, there are some guys that are sick good at push/fold and ICM there and are more than happy to give input.Oh another thing lol, if you plan on taking these seriously you should really multitable them, or else you could go into an entire monthlong downswing and that can be truly soul crushing, playing minimum of 800 a month is what you should shoot for, the graph above is a two week sample, most regs play anywhere from 1k-1800 games a month depending on if it is their sole income or if they have a fulltime job as well.If you only four table or something, pay attention to players that are good ( ie guys that are very active open-shoving, restealing, etc. ) Good players will be shoving a lot wider than bad players, bad players in these games are super nitty, so taking notes on good players is very helpful later when the average effective stack is less than 15 bets. To give a very vague example lets says your in BB with 9 BB's and SB has 15ish....if SB is a good player he is shoving a minimum of 70% of his range, most regs will shove any two here depending on if they have been paying attention to how tight you are. So if its a good player shoving on you, you'd be calling very wide here in a vacuum ( not taking into fact how deep into the money, bubble factor, etc ). Now if its a poor player in the SB shoving ( ie nitbag ) you'd be calling a lot tighter A8+, 66+. Super vague example i know. Just lurking through the 2+2 forum and reading other players posts you'll learn a ton about these spots.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

These are great tournies for volume and improving your hourly rate, just gotta remember to not be results oriented, the variance is super sick in these, its pretty common to have a 50 buy-in downswing every month, even if your playing perfect push/fold. The good news is winning one makes up for the gross downswongs. I'll post one of the best players on the internet at these turbo's graph so you can see the sick swings, notice the huge downswings, and massive upswings as well...these are mostly turbo 45 mans, with some turbo 180 mans sprinkled in, buy-ins mostly the $12's, with some $36's sprinkled in and some stuff in between.Notable Downswings: games 0-70ish, 125-170ish, 240-290, 550-800Notable Upswongs: games 170-240, 270-360, 420-560One other thing, its super easy to start tilting in these, so its a good idea to run every tourney through SNGWiz after each session and see where you shouldve been shoving and weren't and vice versa....also a great place to post for these ( if the trial for SNGWiz expires and you cant afford the hit to the bankroll to buy it atm ) is twoplustwo.com in the STT Tournament Section, there are some guys that are sick good at push/fold and ICM there and are more than happy to give input.Oh another thing lol, if you plan on taking these seriously you should really multitable them, or else you could go into an entire monthlong downswing and that can be truly soul crushing, playing minimum of 800 a month is what you should shoot for, the graph above is a two week sample, most regs play anywhere from 1k-1800 games a month depending on if it is their sole income or if they have a fulltime job as well.If you only four table or something, pay attention to players that are good ( ie guys that are very active open-shoving, restealing, etc. ) Good players will be shoving a lot wider than bad players, bad players in these games are super nitty, so taking notes on good players is very helpful later when the average effective stack is less than 15 bets. To give a very vague example lets says your in BB with 9 BB's and SB has 15ish....if SB is a good player he is shoving a minimum of 70% of his range, most regs will shove any two here depending on if they have been paying attention to how tight you are. So if its a good player shoving on you, you'd be calling very wide here in a vacuum ( not taking into fact how deep into the money, bubble factor, etc ). Now if its a poor player in the SB shoving ( ie nitbag ) you'd be calling a lot tighter A8+, 66+. Super vague example i know. Just lurking through the 2+2 forum and reading other players posts you'll learn a ton about these spots.

WOW!! More great info. Thanks. I thought I was doing good 2-3 tabling 9 man sngs, doing about 8-10 per night. HAHAHAHA!! I need to get a better feel first, but right now I really can't commit the time to bang out even 100 a week (unless I just spaz out on each one the first hour), but gives me a good goal to shoot for. I have been concentrating more on cash games the past few months, but I think variance has got me down, so going back to SNGs and moving from 1 table SNG to MTT SNG. I have been "seriously" playing for about 5 months now for therepy reasons (don't laugh I am being serious but don't feel like going into details right now) and I have gotten alot better. Need to start lurking at 2+2 instead of being a FCP whore. Anyway, thanks for the good info and I am sure I'll post some more hands this week.

[rbakken2504 0]

WOW!! More great info. Thanks. I thought I was doing good 2-3 tabling 9 man sngs, doing about 8-10 per night. HAHAHAHA!! I need to get a better feel first, but right now I really can't commit the time to bang out even 100 a week (unless I just spaz out on each one the first hour), but gives me a good goal to shoot for. I have been concentrating more on cash games the past few months, but I think variance has got me down, so going back to SNGs and moving from 1 table SNG to MTT SNG. I have been "seriously" playing for about 5 months now for therepy reasons (don't laugh I am being serious but don't feel like going into details right now) and I have gotten alot better. Need to start lurking at 2+2 instead of being a FCP whore. Anyway, thanks for the good info and I am sure I'll post some more hands this week.

Multi-tabling the 45's is a lot easier than 9 man's, p man's can get super hectic a good portion get short handed, the 45 man's, even when shorthanded are fiarly easily cuz its pushbot usually...The more you get comfortable and know spots, the easier it is too multitable them....Just work your way up, start at three ( or whatever youre comfortable with) and keep adding one more every so often. Some people can only handle eight, and than there are other sickos who can multitable 50+ ( my head would explode if i did that many ) FCP has some real quality posters here, but there are just loads of insanely good players that post a lot over at 2p2 ( along with some terrible ones too tho haha )

[babylondonks 5]

who's graph is that? Brad? IGT? LIPO!?edit: oh I saw it's an 800 game sample, I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit

[rbakken2504 0]

who's graph is that? Brad? IGT? LIPO!?edit: oh I saw it's an 800 game sample, I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit

LOL, its Bodeye's graph...its on his blog if you wanna check it out

[babylondonks 5]

I couldn't find a proper sharkscope of his sn even after looking through his blog, meh

[rbakken2504 0]

I couldn't find a proper sharkscope of his sn even after looking through his blog, meh

I think his screenname is Bodeye2 on FTP

[babylondonks 5]

Oh right I was looking at stars because we were talking about 180 mans which ftp doesn't really offer. Okay never mind, carry on with this thread!

[HighwayStar 8]

its pretty common to have a 50 buy-in downswing every month,

Try three times every day and you're closer.

[Tehtoe 3]

[rbakken2504 0]

Try three times every day and you're closer.

I run good

[rbakken2504 0]

Oh right I was looking at stars because we were talking about 180 mans which ftp doesn't really offer. Okay never mind, carry on with this thread!

I've never sharkcoped him, just read his blogs....sue me

[rbakken2504 0]

Nevermind, bodeye only plays the 45 mans on ftp as far as i can tell

[rrumsey 0]

swings happen. true story.