DonkSlayer 1 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 No read on villain as he was relatively new to the table. I've played a ton of pots the past few orbits but have only shown down a bluff once.I don't play tourneys this high usually so comments on all streets welcome. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20+$2 Tournament, 500/1000 Blinds 100 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comsaw flopMP1 (t10808)MP2 (t2109)MP3 (t39402)CO (t9343)Button (t18372)Hero (SB) (t20262)BB (t14339)UTG (t15660)UTG+1 (t27858)Hero's M: 8.44Preflop: Hero is SB with J, A4 folds, MP3 bets t2000, 2 folds, Hero calls t1500, 1 foldFlop: (t5900) 8, 6, 10(2 players)Hero bets t4500, MP3 calls t4500Turn: (t14900) 4(2 players)Hero checks, MP3 checksRiver: (t14900) 4(2 players)Hero types "I don't believe you" and checks...I donked the flop because I felt that it was about the only way I could get away from the hand if villain pushed; didn't see me getting away from it if I checked the flop and he led. My plan was to shove an J, 7 or 9 turn that wasn't a heart, c/c a heart turn and donkshove river. I have no idea what I would've done if an A turned. Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 You have a nice stack to c/shove the flop.You may have fold equity if you shoved the turn, but even if he called, you still have a lot of flush outs and overs, granted he doesn't have QQ+, which I doubt seeing as you didn't get raised on the donkbet. I think you may be able to fold out 77/99 type hands. Link to post Share on other sites
Sick Boy 0 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 All in on the flop. The pot is big enough to just try take it down right there with the type of hand you have.If he calls thinking you're on a draw, good on him you're still gonna be favourite most of the time. But betting $4500 is bad imo becasue of he just flat calls you're in a bad spot if the turn is a blank. So just shove and put him to a decesion for half his chips. Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 + another 1 for check shove flop. open shoving is teh ghey. Link to post Share on other sites
cdipierr 0 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I like a check-shove on the flop. Your betting 4500 so you can fold to a shove is just plain bad in this spot. Even if you figure his range is pretty good, here's your odds breakdown:vs AA = 40%vs KK/QQ/JJ/AK/AQ = 47%vs TT/88/66 = 27%vs anything else you're the favorite and you have a ton of FE. Link to post Share on other sites
Canary3 1 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 If we check/shove the flop, what do we do on turn if villian checks behind on the flop? Link to post Share on other sites
cdipierr 0 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 If we check/shove the flop, we do we do on turn if villian checks behind on the flop?Well first off it means the villain is full of it. There's no way he checks behind with any sort of decent hand because the board is too drawy. So, given this is the case, let's put him on an AK/AQ/KQ type of hand. If that's the case, and the turn bricks on us, I think we check again, with the intention of shoving over a bet. If the villain manages to check behind the turn as well, then I think we can check/fold a bricked river. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Anyone 3bet shove PF? Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJon 175 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Anyone 3bet shove PF?Do we really have implied odds to just flat PF? As played, check/shove flop. If checked behind on the flop, then shove any non heart turn. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Anyone 3bet shove PF?could that isn't a bad option as played is ok too bc we induced a cbet then we can shove and pick up more in a folded pot. with a stack this low regardless of style with the nut draw and an M below 9 we shove at some point thou. It doesn't matter to much where we push more that we do it. You know what OOP yah im liking shove more now. Ok so best option: shove second best: flat and check raise all in almost blind (it basically does the same thing but we induce more money into the pot and third best is flat and try to play "conservative". At first didn't i ddin't realize stacks were so short yah we shove Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 allinpreflop Link to post Share on other sites
cdipierr 0 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Can the AIPF folks explain their reasoning on this one? We're getting called by AK and possibly AQ. We're getting called by a lot of pairs. And it's debatable whether we have much FE. I'd just like to hear the reasoning behind it more. Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 Can the AIPF folks explain their reasoning on this one? We're getting called by AK and possibly AQ. We're getting called by a lot of pairs. And it's debatable whether we have much FE. I'd just like to hear the reasoning behind it more.I think shoving is really unnecessary here, as villain only loses half his stack and we have a 20bb stack and are about to be IP for the next few hands.So, the concensus is to c/shove flop? I'm pretty sure that would've been best. What's our plan if it gets checked behind and the turn is what it is? Link to post Share on other sites
outsider13 0 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 I think shoving is really unnecessary here, as villain only loses half his stack and we have a 20bb stack and are about to be IP for the next few hands.So, the concensus is to c/shove flop? I'm pretty sure that would've been best. What's our plan if it gets checked behind and the turn is what it is?I think a suggestion for that was mentioned earlier that I agree with. You can check shove the turn too, and if checked to the river, you can check/fold any blank river. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Can the AIPF folks explain their reasoning on this one? We're getting called by AK and possibly AQ. We're getting called by a lot of pairs. And it's debatable whether we have much FE. I'd just like to hear the reasoning behind it more.Were shoveling here because we are ahead of a decent amount of villains opening range, we have FE and we have the perfect resteal stack. We have 20bbs. Our hand plays awkwardly post flop especially OOP. So if we take the pot down now, we increase our stack by about 10% with blinds and antes. And you would be surprised that we are ahead or flipping with the range of villainAlright...come on people calling it a spewy play!Edit: We are open shoving 15bbs and less...so why not 3bet shove a hand here Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Can the AIPF folks explain their reasoning on this one? We're getting called by AK and possibly AQ. We're getting called by a lot of pairs. And it's debatable whether we have much FE. I'd just like to hear the reasoning behind it more.?!?!?!?!*worried look*We have a ton of fold equity AND we're probably not much worse than 40% vs a calling range.Calling out of position with 20 BBs is just awful. Really awful. I'd rather fold.As played check shove flop and I guess shove turn.I donked the flop because I felt that it was about the only way I could get away from the hand if villain pushed;Why do you wanna get away from this hand. If I bet the flop, I'm bet/snap calling. You have overcards + nfd + backdoor straight draw + the fact you might still be good (he might shove something like J9). You're only in rough shape here against a set. Flipping against KK/QQ/JJ/99/AT. Beating lots of other feasible stuff. I'd probably get 50 Big Blinds in on this flop if I somehow got the oppurtunity to. Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 could that isn't a bad option as played is ok too bc we induced a cbet then we can shove and pick up more in a folded pot. with a stack this low regardless of style with the nut draw and an M below 9 we shove at some point thou. It doesn't matter to much where we push more that we do it. You know what OOP yah im liking shove more now. Ok so best option: shove second best: flat and check raise all in almost blind (it basically does the same thing but we induce more money into the pot and third best is flat and try to play "conservative". At first didn't i ddin't realize stacks were so short yah we shoveYou're gonna get yourself in a lot of horrible spots by just check shoving the flop blind. I kinda like the idea since it's aggro as hell but I don't think it'll work well in the long term. It doesn't make much sense to do it with a hand like AJ since you're devaluing it a lot.at least I think that's what you're saying...the stop and stop and goIf you have a read that the dude is gonna c bet 100% of the time then it might not be all that bad. I don't think doing it blind is gonna be good though. There are just some flops you have to check /fold since they bink him too hard.Shoving pre is gonna be very similar in EV....almost certainly better..and a much easier and lower variance decision to make. Over complicated things/over thinking is generally a bad idea at low stakes MTTs. Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 ?!?!?!?!*worried look*We have a ton of fold equity AND we're probably not much worse than 40% vs a calling range.Calling out of position with 20 BBs is just awful. Really awful. I'd rather fold.I disagree that we have a ton of FE shoving pre, especially with my image. Average villain is calling with 33+ and A10+ and KQ. Your second post below this one is sort of moot if we don't agree on the FE. I'm pretty sure HOH II would advocate a flat here over the other options, given how small the raise was and the size of the pot. He specifically mentions flatting when you get better than 2:1 and are in the Orange rather than Red zone. Why do you wanna get away from this hand. If I bet the flop, I'm bet/snap calling. You have overcards + nfd + backdoor straight draw + the fact you might still be good (he might shove something like J9). You're only in rough shape here against a set. Flipping against KK/QQ/JJ/99/AT. Beating lots of other feasible stuff. I'd probably get 50 Big Blinds in on this flop if I somehow got the oppurtunity to.I don't, I was playing scared. It was incorrect to donk using that justification. Not sure if I would try to get 50bb's in here though on the flop when I'm already in the money. Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 I disagree that we have a ton of FE shoving pre, especially with my image. Average villain is calling with 33+ and A10+ and KQ.ok vs that range AJs has 46% equity. That range constitutes 11.9% of preflop holdingsI'd say a random villain is probably opening something like this22+,A7s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JToWhich is 19.8% of handsSo you're getting a fold abut 40% of the time on a shove and you;re flipping the rest.Easy shove. Extremely +EV.Even if he's only opening about 14% it's still gonna be +EV.I could prob find some ranges where it's a lot closer. Link to post Share on other sites
donk4life 34 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 The Brit knows his stuff. Link to post Share on other sites
cdipierr 0 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 For some reason I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around an AJ 3-bet shove. It just seems like you're going to be against AQ/AK way too often to make this profitable. While the villain's opening range is certainly wider than that, those and pairs are the most likely calls. We'll essentially never be a favorite against a hand that calls us. But yes, if we're confident villain will fold to the 3-bet shove, that's fine I guess. Link to post Share on other sites
Tehtoe 3 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Why is something so standard getting so much discussion? Reshove ainec. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Why is something so standard getting so much discussion? Reshove ainec.FCP believes every standard hand is the hardest decision Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Even if he's only opening about 14% it's still gonna be +EV.I could prob find some ranges where it's a lot closer.Here is is with 14% of his range...yes, it is closer, but it is still +EVHand 0: 52.895% 49.08% 03.82% 124368191 9679237.50 { AhJh }Hand 1: 47.105% 43.29% 03.82% 109694326 9679237.50 { 77+, A8s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo } Link to post Share on other sites
Canary3 1 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Why is something so standard getting so much discussion? Reshove ainec.Because a lot of people in this tournament forum think you get a bonus for playing postflop. Link to post Share on other sites
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