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1 Table Sng Quiz Question


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Poll: Quiz question (15 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you do?

  1. Call (13 votes [86.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 86.67%

  2. Fold (2 votes [13.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.33%

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#21 Agent 008

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 03:53 PM

View Postnutzzcase, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 12:32 AM, said:

it's a headsup pot, most of the time he's gonna miss the flop and you are gonna take it with a continuation bet (don't think you are losing too much value if any)if you think your post flop skills are better than your opponent I think you should be willing to play weaker hands in position.
Well, that is the reason I raised.Normally, I play SnGs much tighter, but this table seemed reasonably tight in the beginning so I figured there was a good chance I would be deep-stack heads-up in position. Which is an ideal situation for my type of play.

View Postcdipierr, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 4:45 PM, said:

Then if you do and you flop bottom two and get check raised on the flop, please just ship. You're facing Kx enough times here that it's easily going to be profitable if he calls. If he folds, that's fine too because your hand is unlikely to improve. The time he shows up with KJ is just bad luck.
I disagree.Imagine, that the same thing happens, but after he check-raises you, you somehow get a glimpse of his cards, and see that he has Kx.Would you go all-in in this situation?Now imagine the same thing happens again, but when you look at his hand, you see that he has you beat - he has kings up, or a set. You most definitely are not shoving now.So if you knew exactly what hand he had, there is no situation where shoving is significantly better than calling. According to the fundamental theorem of poker, that means that calling is better than shoving here (unless you believe he's going to call with a pair of kings, and a less-than-A kicker).

#22 JSpencer

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 04:03 PM

View Postnutzzcase, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 2:34 PM, said:

you are obv not playing for 10 chips but for your opponent's stack...you are trying to take advantages of you opponent's mistakes post flop.EDIT: you have a lot of room to maneuver with 150bbs and you are in positionEDIT2: and isn't this the goal of small ball poker?
Why the hell are you raising with J 7 from the SB early in the tournament with the blinds at 5/10with the intent of playing for stacks? Raising with J 7 in that spot should only be done with the intent of stealing a blind. And the concept that"I have 150BB so I can afford to raise with crap" is pretty twisted. Especially this early on in a SnG.And no, that is not the goal of small ball poker. Small Poker is highly reliant on pot control, not on raising withcrap hoping to get lucky with a hand that is extremely vulnerable by a caller the majority of the time.

#23 Agent 008

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 04:05 PM

Anyway.When I was in the hand, I had this going through my head:1). He has seen me call his check-raise on the flop, and check-call a big turn bet of his. He has to give me credit for a strong hand.2). There is no reason why he would expect me to fold to his river bet. I was pretty confident he expected me to call.Now, what kind of hands could he be making such a move? AK, two pair, or a set.What else do we know? He just called my raise on the bb. From what I have seen, the average player in those SnGs tends to play AK or KK aggressively preflop. It is possible that he limped with one of those hands, but it is unlikely.Now, unless he is batshit insane, the only hand he could be doing it with that I could be beating was AK. But as I said, it was much more likely that he had a weaker hand preflop.So after thinking all this, I was pretty sure chances were I was beat, and I folded, thinking that he most likely was playing KJ, maybe a pair of 77 or JJ.I turn over my hand, hoping he'd do the same so that I could confirm my read... and he turns over KJ.I still had a good enough stack for those blinds, so I proceeded to build it back up and bust through the bubble. :club:

#24 JSpencer

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 04:08 PM

View PostJSpencer, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 2:16 PM, said:

If he has K J then it will at least teach you a lesson.

View PostAgent 008, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 4:05 PM, said:

I turn over my hand, hoping he'd do the same so that I could confirm my read... and he turns over KJ.
And did you learn your lesson?

#25 nutzzcase

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 04:11 PM

View PostJSpencer, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 4:03 PM, said:

And no, that is not the goal of small ball poker. Small Poker is highly reliant on pot control, not on raising withcrap hoping to get lucky with a hand that is extremely vulnerable by a caller the majority of the time.
" strategy which involves playing lots of marginal hands with medium-size raises, and maneuvering your opponents after the flop. The idea is to create an image of yourself as a maniac while you're really not."

#26 donk4life

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 05:03 PM

It is really really really difficult to play smallball when you start with 1500 chips and the blinds increase much faster than a higher buy-in live tournament.

View Postakashenk, on 02 August 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't mind folding out hands we beat.

#27 JSpencer

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 05:08 PM

View Postnutzzcase, on Monday, March 29th, 2010, 4:11 PM, said:

" strategy which involves playing lots of marginal hands with medium-size raises, and maneuvering your opponents after the flop. The idea is to create an image of yourself as a maniac while you're really not."
I can do that too

Quote

Small ball poker is intended to primarily be used in MTTs as opposed to SNGs and cash games.
And my original statement is still correct. The main purpose of small ball poker is pot control. You want to play abig pot when you have a big hand and a small one when you have a marginal hand. Playing with a marginalhand with the intent of stacking off someone at the table is not its main goal.

#28 Agent 008

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 04:06 AM

View PostJSpencer, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 2:08 AM, said:

I can do that tooAnd my original statement is still correct. The main purpose of small ball poker is pot control. You want to play abig pot when you have a big hand and a small one when you have a marginal hand. Playing with a marginalhand with the intent of stacking off someone at the table is not its main goal.
I agree, that wasn't the best play preflop for a SnG, but my losses would have been minimal had I only had a marginal hand post-flop and found that I couldn't outplay my opponent.Anyway, that's somewhat beside the point of this thread.

#29 cashman

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:19 AM

Did you make this post to try and point out what a good read you made? You pose a question that is painfully obvious. All the real questions were on everything except what you had to do in that spot. You were trying to play small ball in a 1500 stack sit n go. Seriously? Once you hit the miracle flop you had to call him down regardless of what he actually ended up having. Way too many of his possible hands were behind your two pair so you had to call there. Look through these responses and you will see that your question was not really even being debated. Everyone else focused on how poor your preflop raise was. Calling the all in was a snap call. Try not to be solely results oriented. This hand was played very poorly. Tight is right early on in sit n gos and small ball is impossible w/1500 starting stacks.

#30 cdipierr

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:56 AM

These level posts really need to stop. It's just painful at this point.

#31 Agent 008

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 07:15 AM

View Postcashman, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 2:19 PM, said:

Did you make this post to try and point out what a good read you made? You pose a question that is painfully obvious. All the real questions were on everything except what you had to do in that spot. [...]Calling the all in was a snap call.
I don't agree with this. I have explained why I think calling in this situation is worse than folding.The reason why I made this thread is because my first reaction was to call it as well, but the more I think about it, the more I get convinced that folding in that situation was correct - if my assumptions about my opponent are true:1). He is not suicidal.2). He assumes that I am not suicidal.

#32 TrueAce13

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 07:30 AM

View PostAgent 008, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 8:15 AM, said:

I don't agree with this. I have explained why I think calling in this situation is worse than folding.The reason why I made this thread is because my first reaction was to call it as well, but the more I think about it, the more I get convinced that folding in that situation was correct - if my assumptions about my opponent are true:1). He is not suicidal.2). He assumes that I am not suicidal.
AND THIS RIGHT HERE IS THE REASON WE DON'T RAISE J7s PF...b/c we get into this stupid situations!
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#33 outsider13

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 07:31 AM

I still think you should have shove in your poll. That's why I didn't vote and I think that's your best option.

#34 nutzzcase

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 07:47 AM

View PostTrueAce13, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 7:30 AM, said:

AND THIS RIGHT HERE IS THE REASON WE DON'T RAISE J7s PF...b/c we get into this stupid situations!
oh come on...this is a very unlucky (unlikely situation).....what if you raise KJ or K10 on the button and BB calls you with KQ....and there's a king on the flop...are you going to fold K10 KJ on the button preflop?

#35 Agent 008

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 07:56 AM

View PostTrueAce13, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 4:30 PM, said:

AND THIS RIGHT HERE IS THE REASON NOT TO PLAY POKER...b/c we get into this stupid situations!
Fix'd.But really, deepstack post-flop play is all about situations like that. Even if you flop the nuts, you are in a "stupid situation" trying to get full value.

#36 Agent 008

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 08:04 AM

View Postoutsider13, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 4:31 PM, said:

I still think you should have shove in your poll. That's why I didn't vote and I think that's your best option.
You mean on the flop after his check-raise?I have replied to that in one of the posts above, and why I don't like that play in this situation.To sum it up, I think against that kind of opponent we are going to make him fold most of the hands that we are beating, and call us with any hand that beats ours.A 3-outer that he may have does not concern me very much either.So I don't see what the real benefit of shoving there is.

#37 Mills

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 08:08 AM

LOL at this thread still happening

#38 nutzzcase

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 08:14 AM

View PostAgent 008, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 9:04 AM, said:

You mean on the flop after his check-raise?I have replied to that in one of the posts above, and why I don't like that play in this situation.To sum it up, I think against that kind of opponent we are going to make him fold most of the hands that we are beating, and call us with any hand that beats ours.A 3-outer that he may have does not concern me very much either.So I don't see what the real benefit of shoving there is.
don't agree with this....there are a lot of cards that are going to make you lose some value, lets says an ace comes on the turn that would hit a lot of his range and yougonna have to check the turn or river for pot control.

#39 nutzzcase

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 08:27 AM

View PostMills, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 9:08 AM, said:

LOL at this thread still happening
seriously lol, im gonna stop posting now. So, OP should have gone broke with the hand and raising j7s on the button isn't that bad if you are "good" post flop and stacks are deep enough. Btw I hate playing 9players sit and goes on PS because i know you have to wait until blinds are big enough to stack other players with strong hands hoping you are dominating them (but in most cases it's a coin flip).

#40 Agent 008

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 08:28 AM

View Postnutzzcase, on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 5:14 PM, said:

don't agree with this....there are a lot of cards that are going to make you lose some value, lets says an ace comes on the turn that would hit a lot of his range and yougonna have to check the turn or river for pot control.
Sure. But it'll also give me a better chance at defining the strength of his hand - letting me make more appropriate plays for value or cutting my losses if I am likely to be beat. I think, with my style of play against those guys, I'd win more chips on average by calling rather than shoving. But it does seem marginal to me.




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