Bottom Set, Deep Stackaments

[Naked_Cowboy 0]

Friday at the bellagio. 10-20 NLHE. Very deep stacks. The room is very busy and the table is good. I have a very TAG image, having had to show down very few hands. About 1 hour previous, I made a very big call on a scary board with QQ for a $3.8k pot. Both people from this hand saw that. Both BB and Button are two of the best players at the table easily (unfortunately?). BB has been somewhat TAG and Button has been a little more LAG and tricky. Stacks: Hero: 3.5kBB: 5kButton: 4.5k Hero is SB with 6h 6d. 2 MP Limpers, button calls, I call, BB raises to 120.Button calls, I call. Pot: 400Flop: Ks Qs 6cHero bets 200.BB thinks and raises to 600.Button quickly calls. Hero: ?Here's where I'm stuck. Pot is $1,800 and we all have quite a bit behind. I'm OOP with what is probably the best hand, but there are potential for monster draws and I can't be sure I'm not drawing to a single out with the BB's preflop raise.

[No_Neck 0]

wow that is pretty tough spot. This might be one of those situations where you call and hope for a safe turn card (yeah I know this isn't omaha blah blah blah). Can you really put the BB on KK or QQ. I mean he could easily have AA here, his range is probably pretty narrow raising out of the big blind. Do you think he raises preflop and on the flop with AK? Also the button calling quickly is an instant sign of a draw, but is he going to the mat with it. I probably raise here and make the BB act with the button still to act again behind him. I dunno what I hate more, calling for a safe turn or raising for information.

[Jordan 1]

hmm, puke on the board and see if they will put a new flop out.bleh, this is pretty weird spot...I don't know what to do, the BB raise is usually quite a strong hand...I think his range is very tight here AA KK QQ AK JJ prob all raise from the bb. TT may as well, but def doesn't make this raise on the flop, nor can JJ.So lets say his range on the flop is AK KK QQ AA...ooooohk, I'm not sure how much that helps us lol, his range is pretty obvious.button cold calls on a draw? bleh, seems dumb/risky with action still being open. I guess he could have Js Ts and doesn't want to shove the flop if he doesn't have to? I don't really get that though...idk man.i'd try the puke line.- Jordan

[iowahawk09 0]

All in and pray to the poker gods?

[CobaltBlue 662]

Whenever I'm confused on something close, I go to PokerStove...PokerStove says:

hand		equity 	  win		tie Hand 0: 	20.524%	  24.18% 	00.26%  { QQ+, AKs, AsJs, KQs, AKo }Hand 1: 	23.589%	  27.83% 	00.26%  { AsJs, AsTs, As6s, KQs, JTs, Js9s, Ts9s, KQo }Hand 2: 	55.887%	  66.55% 	00.00%  { 6d6h }

I'd be curious to know why our equity and win percentage are so different.Basically, I think it depends on whether you want high variance or low variance. If we're willing to go the volatile route, shove it all in now. If we're playing with a large chunk of our BR (*cough*), I might prefer waiting to see what happens on the turn.

[Jordan 1]

post with bb range excluding AJs and KQs.- Jordan

[CobaltBlue 662]

Well, this is odd...

hand		equity 	  win		tie Hand 0: 	20.603%	  21.87% 	00.08%  { QQ+, AKs, AKo }Hand 1: 	23.762%	  27.83% 	00.08%  { AsJs, AsTs, As6s, KQs, JTs, Js9s, Ts9s, KQo }Hand 2: 	55.635%	  59.27% 	00.00%  { 6d6h }

[CobaltBlue 662]

Just SB vs. BB...

hand		equity 	  win		tie Hand 0: 	29.416%	  33.78% 	00.00%  { QQ+, AKs, AKo }Hand 1: 	70.584%	  81.06% 	00.00%  { 6d6h }

[Acid_Knight 2]

This might be one of those situations where you call and hope for a safe turn card (yeah I know this isn't omaha blah blah blah).

Thanks for saving me the trouble.Ok, as I've played in this game quite a bit, I know that spots like this can get dicey. While your 3500 is pretty deep, it's not a ton of money to get stacked for in a 10/20 game. Especially that 10/20 game. I think that your only play here is to make it 2K to go honestly. I know that the tourney is in town and that there are a lot of players who aren't regulars in the game, so I don't know if you've played with these guys before or not.When you donk bet into that draw heavy board, the button is probably raising with AA, AK KQ, etc EVERY time. I really don't think you have a way of getting away from this hand here. You basically HAVE to raise on the flop because you likely have the best hand and you are pretty sure that one player is drawing, and you wanna make him pay for that draw.I think that you gotta raise to 2K and then call a push if it comes to that.

[scram 1]

Raise.If I am in TAG-mode, with that board, I would raise this hand- big- precisely 100% of the time.If someone comes back over the top of me I call 100% of the time and if they have one of the two hands that can beat me, hooray for them. I lose. Welcome to poker, it happens. If they're willing to push or call against the odds to draw, the fundamental theorem of poker says I win there too, even if they get lucky draw out.If I am playing against people who play top pair with an ace kicker like it's the nuts, I might play it a little slower, but I will gather their stack in this spot 3 times of 4.*edit* acid beat me to it.**edit again** IMO, that flop was about the best you could've hoped for holding pocket 6's to TID after the flop.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I think that you gotta raise to 2K and then call a push if it comes to that.

Uhh...why are we not just shoving?If we call the raise, there's $2.2k in the pot and we'll only have $2.8k behind. Button's still going to be getting a pretty decent price if he's got a monster draw.

[Donkeylicious 0]

I honestly don't see how shoving it in could be a bad idea...if youre up against a better set, then youre just up against a better set. I realize at your limits, shoving it in is easier said than done, but if youre playing within your bankroll, then I dont see how getting it all in is a bad thing. Unless that little voice inside is really yelling at me, i have to do something here to let me know the set is truly no good...the ***** of it is almost any raise just about commits you, I would think.i dont think flat calling is an option at all. too many scary cards to come off that would put you way behind...If you're playing TAG, i would think you have great fold equity when you push, and the button *likely* wont want to draw against what would probably look like a monster given the shove...and I still dont think you should rule out AA given his line...im assuming you think TPTK is not witihin his range??but i am justa micro-donk, so i dunnothat is a tough ****in spot tho...i think i go for broke there just about everytime with my set...EDIT:Shiiiiiiiiiiiiit...they all stole my thoughts and typed them quicker!!

[Jordan 1]

Thanks for saving me the trouble.Ok, as I've played in this game quite a bit, I know that spots like this can get dicey. While your 3500 is pretty deep, it's not a ton of money to get stacked for in a 10/20 game. Especially that 10/20 game. I think that your only play here is to make it 2K to go honestly. I know that the tourney is in town and that there are a lot of players who aren't regulars in the game, so I don't know if you've played with these guys before or not.When you donk bet into that draw heavy board, the button is probably raising with AA, AK KQ, etc EVERY time. I really don't think you have a way of getting away from this hand here. You basically HAVE to raise on the flop because you likely have the best hand and you are pretty sure that one player is drawing, and you wanna make him pay for that draw.I think that you gotta raise to 2K and then call a push if it comes to that.

you mean bb raising? bb raised pf. btn open limped...- Jordan

[Acid_Knight 2]

you mean bb raising? bb raised pf. btn open limped...- Jordan

Yeah, that's what I meant.

[CobaltBlue 662]

...but if youre playing within your bankroll, then I dont see how getting it all in is a bad thing.

I don't think NC would mind me saying that's a tad bit of an issue here.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Uhh...why are we not just shoving?If we call the raise, there's $2.2k in the pot and we'll only have $2.8k behind. Button's still going to be getting a pretty decent price if he's got a monster draw.

I dunno, I don't really have a problem with pushing, but I'd hate to scare away a potential customer in the BB if we still have him beat. I guess the idea is that all of my chips are going into this pot. I wouldn't mind if someone else came along for the ride. If the button has a naked flush or straight draw, he'll be a 3-1 dog and will only be getting about 2 or 2.5-1 if the BB folds, so he'll still be making a mistake by calling. Then on the turn, our push will represent a smaller portion of the pot so he'll likely call whether or not he makes his draw.

[Naismith 0]

Man, I really feel like the button has a hand like JsTs here. I would probably push. If you push, I think any result is fine, although I doubt the BB calls. I think if you raise to 2k, you're giving good odds to a big draw since that last 1400 is definitely going in.

[Naismith 0]

If the button has a naked flush or straight draw, he'll be a 3-1 dog and will only be getting about 2 or 2.5-1 if the BB folds, so he'll still be making a mistake by calling.

I think this is a bit misleading since our last 1400 is going in if we raise to 2k no matter what the turn card is. Essentially, he's calling 1400 to win 5100.

[CBass1724 1]

Push and tip your cap when you see KK and JsTs with a spade hitting the turn and blank on river. What a screwed up hand...either way you have to get all your money in here.

[scram 1]

Man, I really feel like the button has a hand like JsTs here.

Why?I don't. It's possible (and maybe he did), but I fail to see any indices that suggest "open ended straight flush draw" instead of an ordinary nut flush draw, possibly 2P or (worst case scenario) an overset. Defeatist poker is a terrible game to play. Always assuming that your opponent always has the absolute gin hand is a way to lose lots and lots and lots of money, especially at the 10/20 NL. While it is "possible", there isn't anything here that suggests he has exactly "Jack Ten Of Spades" as opposed to numerous more likely possibilities.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I think this is a bit misleading since our last 1400 is going in if we raise to 2k no matter what the turn card is. Essentially, he's calling 1400 to win 5100.

Doesn't that imply that he folds unimproved on the turn? I don't think that's the case.Anyway, in this game, if the button is at all competent, he will NEVER turn up with the 15 card draw here. Maybe a gutter and the flush draw, but the OESFD is unlikely.

[Naismith 0]

Why?I don't. It's possible (and maybe he did), but I fail to see any indices that suggest "open ended straight flush draw" instead of an ordinary nut flush draw, possibly 2P or (worst case scenario) an overset. Defeatist poker is a terrible game to play. Always assuming that your opponent always has the absolute gin hand is a way to lose lots and lots and lots of money, especially at the 10/20 NL. While it is "possible", there isn't anything here that suggests he has exactly "Jack Ten Of Spades" as opposed to numerous more likely possibilities.

Okay, my reasoning:I'm trying to come up with a hand that the button limps with, calls a raise and then on this flop calls a bet and a re-raise. I have a hard time seeing him do this with any other draw. Certainly, calling in this position with just a flush draw or just a straight draw is going to be -EV and Cowboy didn't mention him being a bad player.What other hand is reasonable?

[Naismith 0]

Doesn't that imply that he folds unimproved on the turn? I don't think that's the case.Anyway, in this game, if the button is at all competent, he will NEVER turn up with the 15 card draw here. Maybe a gutter and the flush draw, but the OESFD is unlikely.

I was thinking Js9s as a possibility, but I wasn't sure if he calls a preflop raise with that with no one else coming along. Maybe he does with position.I don't agree with the second part. If the button has JsTs and has a solid read of the situation, he wants to just call here and let Cowboy raise so that the BB hopefully comes along. He definitely doesn't want to re-raise, forcing BB to fold anything but a set.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Okay, my reasoning:I'm trying to come up with a hand that the button limps with, calls a raise and then on this flop calls a bet and a re-raise. I have a hard time seeing him do this with any other draw. Certainly, calling in this position with just a flush draw or just a straight draw is going to be -EV and Cowboy didn't mention him being a bad player.What other hand is reasonable?

The problem is that a GOOD player is raising JTs like 95% of the time here. A good player also doesn't call this flop with any other made hand (like AK or KQ) so his most likely hands are JT (maybe with the BDFD) or the nut spade draw with the possibility of the gutter and NFD. I really can't see this being any other hand for the button.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I was thinking Js9s as a possibility, but I wasn't sure if he calls a preflop raise with that with no one else coming along. Maybe he does with position.I don't agree with the second part. If the button has JsTs and has a solid read of the situation, he wants to just call here and let Cowboy raise so that the BB hopefully comes along. He definitely doesn't want to re-raise, forcing BB to fold anything but a set.

The button's thinking for raising any draw could be:Well, that's a scary flop and the SB donked into it with a small bet, so he could have a big hand but he probably just wants to see where he's at, maybe with top pair. The BB is now repping a big hand, probably AA, KK, QQ or AK and if I push, I think the SB folds everything but a set and the BB will have an equally hard time calling me without a set given the action here. Even if I am called, I'll have outs...