$4.40 180 Sng Close To Bubble

[knoxxxy 0]

the HH converter kept screwing up so soz.......*********** # 144 **************PokerStars Game #21751573467: Tournament #118353468, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2008/11/04 9:56:57 ETTable '118353468 2' 9-max Seat #7 is the buttonSeat 1: bakadiles (11666 in chips) Seat 2: bestboy1986 (12755 in chips) Seat 3: knoxxxy (7171 in chips) Seat 4: Soekinho (4422 in chips) Seat 6: dogbert888 (19802 in chips) Seat 7: powermix (12730 in chips) Seat 8: KYO_1731 (522 in chips) Seat 9: djoulious (11892 in chips) bakadiles: posts the ante 50bestboy1986: posts the ante 50knoxxxy: posts the ante 50Soekinho: posts the ante 50dogbert888: posts the ante 50powermix: posts the ante 50KYO_1731: posts the ante 50djoulious: posts the ante 50KYO_1731: posts small blind 200djoulious: posts big blind 400*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to knoxxxy [8c Ac]bakadiles: folds bestboy1986: folds knoxxxy: raises 600 to 1000Soekinho: raises 3372 to 4372 and is all-indogbert888: folds powermix: folds KYO_1731: folds djoulious: folds knoxxxy: calls 3372*** FLOP *** [Qh 5d Qs]*** TURN *** [Qh 5d Qs] [7c]*** RIVER *** [Qh 5d Qs 7c] [7d]Just to confirm...should i have folded this? theres about 24 players left i think i was 14th8 players on the table...3rd to act with A-8 suited.....i have an M of about 7......maybe i could open shove?

[HighwayStar 8]

I usually fold preI fold to that shove - not right odds vs a fairly tight range. (on the bubble/4 more to get through)It's too much to open shoveIn this spotRaise/call 66/77+. AQ+Raise/fold AT/AJ/KQIf the table is tight/passive - add a load of broadway/pairs and maybe suited aces to the raise/fold - down to A8 If the table is full reshovers - add KQ/AJ to the raise/call but open tight (almost nothing you're gonna raise/fold with)Also, I'm less inclinced to raise light if- button/co is big stack-BB/SB are 15-20BB stacks Here, that isn't really a problem, so if the table isn't playing back a lot, I may raise this...it's very close though, the fact it's the bubble and people are less likely to play back maybe tilt me slightly toward raise/fold. In a vacuum, almost always fold.

[BeaverStyle 1]

I think I fold this pre... not deep enough to call a reraise and not really deep enough to play postflop. fold>shove>2.5x raise

[sennin 0]

fold pre, anything else is bad imo

[magnus72 0]

Sorry to sidetrack the thread, but what happened to the 440s? they arent around tonigh.

[HighwayStar 8]

Sorry to sidetrack the thread, but what happened to the 440s? they arent around tonigh.

turbo night.

[magnus72 0]

turbo night.

ok well im using my $72 winnings and entering the $36 180 turbo they got goin.....somebody please stop meedit: I guess its cancelled.

[magnus72 0]

To answer your question Knoxxxy i fodl A8 in that spot becasue you are probaly lookign at a shove from a bigger hadn the majority of the time.OK is there just no no limit ontihgt or what? I might as well go to bed???

[SGFULTON83 0]

I think I fold this pre... not deep enough to call a reraise and not really deep enough to play postflop. fold>shove>2.5x raise

QFT

[knoxxxy 0]

thanks everyone.......i just got another hand...i must like really suck at tournaments......villain was folding his bb alot to button raises, i hadn't personally raised it yet though........so when it folded round i thought i would.......I have seen him bet flop & fold to raise.......What u do here?PokerStars Game #21804005603: Tournament #118744334, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2008/11/06 10:10:57 ETTable '118744334 18' 9-max Seat #3 is the buttonSeat 1: flushdann544 (16879 in chips) Seat 3: FeskenTom (8630 in chips) Seat 5: knoxxxy (9099 in chips) Seat 6: Zelenyi (10425 in chips) Seat 7: DiceIsNice (2160 in chips) Seat 8: JULY93 (22443 in chips) Seat 9: Namehider (10432 in chips) flushdann544: posts the ante 25FeskenTom: posts the ante 25knoxxxy: posts the ante 25Zelenyi: posts the ante 25DiceIsNice: posts the ante 25JULY93: posts the ante 25Namehider: posts the ante 25knoxxxy: posts small blind 125Zelenyi: posts big blind 250*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to knoxxxy [Kh 7c]DiceIsNice: folds JULY93: folds Namehider: folds flushdann544: folds FeskenTom: folds knoxxxy: raises 400 to 650lequinceland is connected Zelenyi: calls 400*** FLOP *** [6c Jd 7s]knoxxxy: checks Zelenyi: bets 750Basically at the time i thought he was gonna bet if i check, i planned to check raise......but then i thought...so what happens if he shoves to my raise...i've just lost 1/3 of my stack or more.....but i think if i raise i obv fold to shove.....I COULD bet flop but then i thought, what if he flats? vry hard to know what to do on turn, i check i look vry weak......i bet i'm getting myself committed.....and if he raises me i guess i gotta fold too......tough spot imo

[outsider13 0]

.....tough spot imo

Cbet would be better here imo. Your hand is really not that good. If he calls your pf raise and flats your cbet, it's my sign to let it go. As you played it, you are unsure if he actually has a hand. You can 3 bet, but you have to fold to a shove and that would be very spewy with your cards. I'm not 3betting that spot ever. Or, you can flat his flop bet and see another card and see how he reacts to another check. I prefer that to a 3bet.Either way, the cbet is the best play on the flop imo. Give up if called or raised.

[SlackerInc 0]

It's too much to open shove

Disagree. Hero's M is 7, and a suited A is a good shoving hand (OTOH I would fold ATo here every time, and AJo would be borderline depending on the table). I'm not saying it's a must-shove; but it's on the borderline.

[outsider13 0]

Disagree. Hero's M is 7, and a suited A is a good shoving hand (OTOH I would fold ATo here every time, and AJo would be borderline depending on the table). I'm not saying it's a must-shove; but it's on the borderline.

Shoving 18bb that early with a weak A would be quite retarded imo. There's no need to panic here at all, or even play recklessly. 18bb is a playable stack and shouldn't be shoved in this spot.

[HighwayStar 8]

I hate hate hate HATE shoving the first hand. I agree raising in almost all spots is almost comparably bad so yea generally fold.Bleh in 2nd hand, those spots are gross. As played I probably c bet and take it from there. Imight limp in preflop if I wanna play the hand.I might check/call here and check/fold if he continues betting (on a turn we miss). Its kinda weak though. You could go nutso and check/call then bet/fold any non K/7 turn if you like mixing things up.

[Gallo 1]

thanks everyone.......i just got another hand...i must like really suck at tournaments......villain was folding his bb alot to button raises, i hadn't personally raised it yet though........so when it folded round i thought i would.......I have seen him bet flop & fold to raise.......What u do here?*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to knoxxxy [Kh 7c]DiceIsNice: folds JULY93: folds Namehider: folds flushdann544: folds FeskenTom: folds knoxxxy: raises 400 to 650lequinceland is connected Zelenyi: calls 400*** FLOP *** [6c Jd 7s]knoxxxy: checks Zelenyi: bets 750Basically at the time i thought he was gonna bet if i check, i planned to check raise......but then i thought...so what happens if he shoves to my raise...i've just lost 1/3 of my stack or more.....but i think if i raise i obv fold to shove.....I COULD bet flop but then i thought, what if he flats? vry hard to know what to do on turn, i check i look vry weak......i bet i'm getting myself committed.....and if he raises me i guess i gotta fold too......tough spot imo

Cbet would be better here imo. Your hand is really not that good. If he calls your pf raise and flats your cbet, it's my sign to let it go. As you played it, you are unsure if he actually has a hand. You can 3 bet, but you have to fold to a shove and that would be very spewy with your cards. I'm not 3betting that spot ever. Or, you can flat his flop bet and see another card and see how he reacts to another check. I prefer that to a 3bet.Either way, the cbet is the best play on the flop imo. Give up if called or raised.

Agreed, you are better off C-betting that flop. By checking you give him the chance to bluff you out and lose chips here. Also, if your plan was to c/r then you should shove on him, not just raise imo.

[SlackerInc 0]

Shoving 18bb that early with a weak A would be quite retarded imo. There's no need to panic here at all, or even play recklessly. 18bb is a playable stack and shouldn't be shoved in this spot.

LOL...in the KQo thread I was too nitty for wanting to fold that after a raise in front and little or no fold equity. Here we've got first-in vig and a hand that stands to do much better than KQo if it is called. I don't remember if you were one of those who said I was too tight the other time, but I see that Highway Star (who I'm fairly sure was in that camp) is essentially agreeing with you that a shove here would be "reckless". And again: I sound like a broken record I suppose, but "18bb" does not convey the fact that it is an M of 7 (equivalent to 10bbs without antes). Folding A8s with an M of 7 is just asking to die from a thousand little cuts in the form of antes nibbling away.

[Gallo 1]

.

[outsider13 0]

LOL...in the KQo thread I was too nitty for wanting to fold that after a raise in front and little or no fold equity. Here we've got first-in vig and a hand that stands to do much better than KQo if it is called. I don't remember if you were one of those who said I was too tight the other time, but I see that Highway Star (who I'm fairly sure was in that camp) is essentially agreeing with you that a shove here would be "reckless". And again: I sound like a broken record I suppose, but "18bb" does not convey the fact that it is an M of 7 (equivalent to 10bbs without antes). Folding A8s with an M of 7 is just asking to die from a thousand little cuts in the form of antes nibbling away.

18bb (M7) is far from a place where you need to do this though. I'd advocate a shove at perhaps a 10bb range, but in this position, you are behind by 3 stacks that have you covered and you have a weak A .... and a playable stack. The only possible thing you could hope for is a call by a weak pair which is highly unlikely. I just think it's a reckless move risking 7000+ for 1000 chips because in reality, you are never ahead if you are called and are only hoping for a steal and your shove screams weakness. And fwiw, A8 is no better than KQ. Often you'll be completely dominated and drawing to 3 outs.

[HighwayStar 8]

The only hands that call a shove crush you and you are flipping with maybe 2? (66/77) Say - 66+,AJ+ ~ 8% of the hands - with 5 to get through that's ~40% of the time someone calls and ~80% of that time you're drawing to 3 outs, 20% flipping. I don't have the time to add it all up but I'm fairly sure it's going to end up with a -ve number.I think this would probs be a +ve shove with about 12 BBs, or 4.5 M?I might shove this in if we were 3/4 handed too, probs better ways to play it though.

[HighwayStar 8]

Sheets just released his shove/raisecall/raiseshove/reshove.Might be slightly unclear - and there are a few assumptions made - but what it shows is shove is a -1/2 BB / hand moveAlso shows raise/fold might be good but barely. Could be made easily negative if you make villains more aggro - which wouldn'#t make the shove change at all.

[Mercury69 3]

Hell,don't even raise PF. Just fold A8...

[HighwayStar 8]

shoving A8 becomes +100 ish at 4500 stack.

[CheckCallMuck 0]

Isn't it worth mentioning that in 4 hands he's going to realistically lose ~14% of his stack just from blinds and antes (more if the blinds/antes go up in that time) and leave him with an M of 6? He's at the lower end of the Orange Zone (M=6-10 "HoH2") and he has first in vigorish. HoH2 advocates pushing with hands as low as middle suited connectors, small pairs, and gapped paint when your M gets this low if the pot is unopened. A8 suited is certainly strong enough to justify a push especially since he's realistically going to lose 14% of his chips with hands worse than this one in only 4 more deals and loses that much more FE for the next rotation (not to mention that the table CL will be in the BB when Hero is on the button. An attempt to steal if it folds around loses it's effectiveness).Did I miss the outcome of the hand?Hand #2: C-betting is an absolute must.

[outsider13 0]

Isn't it worth mentioning that in 4 hands he's going to realistically lose ~14% of his stack just from blinds and antes (more if the blinds/antes go up in that time) and leave him with an M of 6? He's at the lower end of the Orange Zone (M=6-10 "HoH2") and he has first in vigorish. HoH2 advocates pushing with hands as low as middle suited connectors, small pairs, and gapped paint when your M gets this low if the pot is unopened. A8 suited is certainly strong enough to justify a push especially since he's realistically going to lose 14% of his chips with hands worse than this one in only 4 more deals and loses that much more FE for the next rotation (not to mention that the table CL will be in the BB when Hero is on the button. An attempt to steal if it folds around loses it's effectiveness).

There are better spots to get chips though. First, I'd rather shove 72o into 1 person than A8 into 5 people, 3 of whom have me covered. 2nd, I'd rather shove 67s into 5 people than A8. This way you know you'll be live and will have flush and straight possibilities.3rd, Harrington's material is becoming less and less applicable to online poker. If his material states to shove up to 26bb in this spot, that is completely ridiculous imo.

[CheckCallMuck 0]

There are better spots to get chips though. First, I'd rather shove 72o into 1 person than A8 into 5 people, 3 of whom have me covered. 2nd, I'd rather shove 67s into 5 people than A8. This way you know you'll be live and will have flush and straight possibilities.3rd, Harrington's material is becoming less and less applicable to online poker. If his material states to shove up to 26bb in this spot, that is completely ridiculous imo.

First, I'd venture to say you're shoving into 4 people seeing as how KYO is left with 500 chips in the SB. Either s/he just lost a pot that left such a short stack, or this person is sitting out and was hoping to crawl into the money. Of those 4 people, the only one I'd be worried about calling me without a premium hand would be the table CL. The other 2 larger stacks would essentially be risking their tournament life by calling away ~60% of their stack, so you have to put their range of calling hands pretty high. But I digress...You're comparing what you would rather shove with to what you're able to shove with. There is no telling whether or not you're going to get a better hand in a better position before your FE is too low to matter. Furthermore, there's nothing saying that your A isn't going to be a live card. You may get callers ranging from 77 (A8s = 2 live over cards + flush draw) to KQs (1 over card, flush draw, and in the lead). At least A8s offers some high card potential and can win the pot outright compared to 67s which has to catch. Plus, you simply cannot overlook the fact that in 4 hands our hero is going to lose 14% of his stack. What if it was known that the blinds/antes were going to go from 200/400/50 to 300/600/50 in 2 hands? Would you shove now with A8s despite still having the same M/Q/#BBs going into the hand being discussed?As for Harrington's material, I disagree that it is becoming less and less applicable. He states that as you get into the Orange Zone, as previously mentioned, your ability to play certain ways is limited. As you move down in the zone, you're no longer able to raise pre-flop then hope to push people off the pot after the flop. You're simply trying to take down whatever pots you can as quickly as you can. Our hero was basically at the bottom wrung of this zone and facing both of the blinds in 4 hands. His options were very limited and his ability to wait for a suitable hand in better position was on life support. Also, it's worth mentioning that the HoH is widely regarded as one of the best tournament tutorial series on the market.I still haven't seen the outcome anywhere in the thread other than the board being double paired. Maybe our hero had QQ77 with an A kicker vs pocket 6s?