fold pocket kings preflop?

[ckbandit 0]

....I should have. In a live charity event ($100 buy-in) over the weekend, I found myself the one of the tournament leaders with about 50 of the original 200 players remaining. The second chip leader at my table limps UTG and a fairly conservative player that's the small stack moves in next to him. I look down at KK. Now I'm almost positive that he's holding AA, I even ask him, but a loss to him wouldn't cripple me in any way. Though I thought his bet was enough (about $700 vs. my $3000 stack) to drive out the limper, I raised $1000 to ensure heads up (bad play? let me know) To my surprise, the limper calls. The flop shows Jxx, no feasible flush or straight draws. Check, check. Turn shows another J. Again check, check (bad play? again, feedback appreciated). River is a blank. We both checked again. Showdown: All in shows pocket Kings! Limper shows AA and I'm beat. I put the wrong guy on AA. Everyone watching is ackwardly silent. Oh well I guess. I placed in the money, but was never really able to mount a comeback after that hand.So my questions are: Has/Should anyone ever fold KK pre-flop with an overwhemling feeling that your opponent has AA? Also, any problems with me checking that hand down? Let me know. Thanks in advance.-Chris

[Marc-O 0]

Wow.... tough play...Ive folded kings before online because there was 4 ppl all in and if i lost the pot i would have been out 1 place from the moeny... so i thought smart and let 3 ppl go out ahead of me so i could at lesat finish in the moneyI was correct.........because A Q ended up hitting 2 pair on the flop... knocking 3 ppl out......and putting me in the money...

[CJHunt 0]

I couldn't do it in that situation. But I am sure others could have or at the very least will come onto the messageboard and SAY they would have :-)Edit for horrible spelling.

[insano 0]

Thats a tough one for sure. Just the more reason to say that you can play the hand correctly and not win the hand.As weak as the limper played his hand post flop, another big bet might have gotten him out on the turn when that 2nd jack hit. But it depeneds how he had been playing on previous hands.I know if I was holding AA, and a jack on the flop and another on the turn came, and my opponent came out firing, I might second guess whether my rockets were good.

[ckbandit 0]

As weak as the limper played his hand post flop, another big bet might have gotten him out on the turn when that 2nd jack hit. .

That's where I kept 2nd guessing myself. After the hand, I asked him if I would've bet that 2nd jack, would he have folded and he said "No, I couldn't get away from my rockets." Whether or not that's true, I don't know. Thanks for the input.

[TheIceman05 0]

I was correct.........because A Q ended up hitting 2 pair on the flop... knocking 3 ppl out......and putting me in the money...

That... reasoning... making... my computer's... logical circuts...ANGRY!Stop thinking like that. If your opponent had 22 and you called an all in with AA, then the board came A3459, would that make your play wrong?Jesus.Ice

[bdams19 0]

Obviously it would, if you win the hand you made the right play :roll:

[ckbandit 0]

I was correct.........because A Q ended up hitting 2 pair on the flop... knocking 3 ppl out......and putting me in the money...

That... reasoning... making... my computer's... logical circuts...ANGRY!Stop thinking like that. If your opponent had 22 and you called an all in with AA, then the board came A3459, would that make your play wrong?Jesus.Ice

I don't want to turn my thread into a flame war or anything, but I think if a bunch of people were all-in and I'm one out of the $$, I'm folding anything (if I can't cover the max. bet). This at least ensures me that I'm placing, because there's good chance that somebody is going out. If there's a logical reason to do otherwise, let me know.BTW that wasn't the situation with my hand.Edit: I guess some could argue it's not playing to win, it's playing not to lose, but I'd still lay down there barring some explanation that I'm missing.

[Marc-O 0]

I was correct.........because A Q ended up hitting 2 pair on the flop... knocking 3 ppl out......and putting me in the money...

That... reasoning... making... my computer's... logical circuts...ANGRY!Stop thinking like that. If your opponent had 22 and you called an all in with AA, then the board came A3459, would that make your play wrong?Jesus.Ice

I don't want to turn my thread into a flame war or anything, but I think if a bunch of people were all-in and I'm one out of the $$, I'm folding anything (if I can't cover the max. bet). This at least ensures me that I'm placing, because there's good chance that somebody is going out. If there's a logical reason to do otherwise, let me know.BTW that wasn't the situation with my hand.

exactly why i thought it was best to fold

[TheIceman05 0]

exactly why i thought it was best to fold

No, you thought it was best to fold because, one time, you were on the bubble and you were almost all in but you folded, and somebody with a worse hand would have outdrawn you. That kind of results-based thinking is terrible in poker. After you make your decision, what happens doesn't matter. All the matters is HOW OFTEN things happen IN THE LONG RUN.And OP, your read was WRONG! Ice

[ckbandit 0]

And OP, your read was WRONG! Obviously.I mentioned that in the OP ("I put the wrong guy on AA"). I'm just looking for player input possibly leading to good discussion.

[TheIceman05 0]

And OP, your read was WRONG! Obviously.I mentioned that in the OP ("I put the wrong guy on AA"). I'm just looking for player input possibly leading to good discussion.

Because you're a SWINGERS fan and from Grand Rapids, I'll take it easier on you.My point is this: if you're sure a player has aces, you should fold your kings, unless you're getting 4.5-1 or better. But the secondary (and most important) point is this: based on the unreliability of your reads, you'll have a tough time being sure an opponent has aces. I've folded kings before the flop once or twice. Even in a cash game. If you know a weaker player very well, you can reasonably put him on a very small range of hands. I had KK. Based on the way he played the hand, he had either KK or AA (he plays them exactly the same before the flop). I made a stupid play preflop, and he moved in on me. I was getting something like 1.8-1. If he has kings, we chop. If he has Aces, I need 4.5 to 1. He can have kings one way, and aces 6 ways. He's got aces 6 times as often as he has kings, so I had to fold. He flipped over KK and I shrugged. Still a good play.But I'd played thousands of hands with this guy... and he sucked. Is that a decent answer??Ice

[justblaze 0]

I don't want to turn my thread into a flame war or anything, but I think if a bunch of people were all-in and I'm one out of the $$, I'm folding anything (if I can't cover the max. bet). This at least ensures me that I'm placing, because there's good chance that somebody is going out. If there's a logical reason to do otherwise, let me know. play to make the money, you'll end up losing a lot of it. THERE IS NO MONEY AT THE BUBBLE. THE MONEY IS AT THE FINAL TABLE. End of discussion.

[justblaze 0]

And OP, your read was WRONG! Obviously.I mentioned that in the OP ("I put the wrong guy on AA"). I'm just looking for player input possibly leading to good discussion.

Because you're a SWINGERS fan and from Grand Rapids, I'll take it easier on you.My point is this: if you're sure a player has aces, you should fold your kings, unless you're getting 4.5-1 or better. But the secondary (and most important) point is this: based on the unreliability of your reads, you'll have a tough time being sure an opponent has aces. I've folded kings before the flop once or twice. Even in a cash game. If you know a weaker player very well, you can reasonably put him on a very small range of hands. I had KK. Based on the way he played the hand, he had either KK or AA (he plays them exactly the same before the flop). I made a stupid play preflop, and he moved in on me. I was getting something like 1.8-1. If he has kings, we chop. If he has Aces, I need 4.5 to 1. He can have kings one way, and aces 6 ways. He's got aces 6 times as often as he has kings, so I had to fold. He flipped over KK and I shrugged. Still a good play.But I'd played thousands of hands with this guy... and he sucked. Is that a decent answer??Ice

No. Unless the deck is marked and you know he has aces, you cant fold KK preflop in a cash game. You just cant. I dont care about your read. if you are not 100% sure villain has AA (and this kind of read may come once in a lifetime, if that) you cant fold.

[ckbandit 0]

Is that a decent answer??Ice

Thank you for that perspective. My read was unreliable partly because the limper was relatively new to our table (I know...not a great excuse) I did read the All-In for a strong hand as he was at our table from the beginning. Plus, I would expect some sort of raise w/ AA. But I guess the slowplay worked for him. I bet preflop expecting heads up. When limper called a $1700 bet, I then easily put him on strength.

[Guest Anonymous]

Is that a decent answer??Ice

Thank you for that perspective. My read was unreliable partly because the limper was relatively new to our table (I know...not a great excuse) I did read the All-In for a strong hand as he was at our table from the beginning. Plus, I would expect some sort of raise w/ AA. But I guess the slowplay worked for him. I bet preflop expecting heads up. When limper called a $1700 bet, I then easily put him on strength.

no, but should've. home game, i'm chip leader, three all ins before me, one of could severely cripple me. i go all in after them with kk. guy with 88 rivers a straight. lay down kk or aa for that matter with 3 or more all ins before you.

[Smasharoo 0]

lay down kk or aa for that matter with 3 or more all ins before you.Chococat is crying cold bloody tears of rage.

[bdams19 0]

Is that a decent answer??Ice

Thank you for that perspective. My read was unreliable partly because the limper was relatively new to our table (I know...not a great excuse) I did read the All-In for a strong hand as he was at our table from the beginning. Plus, I would expect some sort of raise w/ AA. But I guess the slowplay worked for him. I bet preflop expecting heads up. When limper called a $1700 bet, I then easily put him on strength.

no, but should've. home game, i'm chip leader, three all ins before me, one of could severely cripple me. i go all in after them with kk. guy with 88 rivers a straight. lay down kk or aa for that matter with 3 or more all ins before you.

I love the logic even more than the arguement

[SinPies 0]

no, but should've. home game, i'm chip leader, three all ins before me, one of could severely cripple me. i go all in after them with kk. guy with 88 rivers a straight. lay down kk or aa for that matter with 3 or more all ins before you.

Would you like to come play in a friendly home game? We need solid players like you.

[Actuary 3]

at the risk of being an idiot.Cash games I never fold AA/KK preflopAnd, have yet to do it in a tourney.however, isn't the discussion unique for the two, tourney vs cash?Cash, all day long, ... 3 all ins I'm calling/pushing for the huge equity.Nonethelss in a tounament, against 3 other all ins, I'm quite possible a less than 50% favorite. Since I only win $$$ if I survive long enough, perhaps I wouldn't want to risk my life with <50% chance of winning.In the small online buys in, I call everyday. But give me a big buy-in, I might pick a better spot, e.g. hitting a set, to push. If yuo feel good about your skills, why risk yuor tourney life on a <50% proposition? (actually I'm not sure what # of opponets makes u a <50%, but I don't think those advocating to call, are considering that anyway...so it's hypothetical)Again, I call (so far). But I'd like to see the Cash vs Tourney addressed

[greatwhite 0]

Only folded kings once preflop and I was right. It was actually in home game. 2 people went all in and the tightest person there moved all in when it was my turn to act.

[Ryan_Sanders 0]

I wouldn't have folded them, I most likely would have lost all my money with them knowing the way I play. You could have bet the jack on the turn and a more conservative player might fold. You were right to raise.

[pokerboyvn 0]

I don't want to flame. But many good players fold KK preflop more than once. If you don't believe, ask those who play 10/20 NL in pokerstars.

[Smasharoo 0]

I don't want to flame. But many good players fold KK preflop more than once. If you don't believe, ask those who play 10/20 NL in pokerstars.Not getting 4 to 1 they're not.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't want to flame. But many good players fold KK preflop more than once. If you don't believe' date=' ask those who play 10/20 NL in pokerstars.[/b']Not getting 4 to 1 they're not.[/quoteyou must also understand smash plays .25/.50 so it is a lot diffferent his opinionis useless