How Dry It Is (2/3)

[CobaltBlue 662]

Bodog 2/3 NLHE (4-handed)CO $1340SB $291Cobalt $303Cobalt is BB w/ K J . I haven't been at the table very long (a round or two), so no significant reads. I have seen Button complain about CO being loose-passive pre-flop.Pre-flop:CO calls, 1 fold, SB raises to $6, Cobalt calls, CO callsFlop ($18): K K 6 (3 players)SB bets $14, Cobalt calls, CO raises to $46, SB calls, Cobalt callsTurn ($156): 8 (3 players)SB bets $99, Cobalt calls, CO goes all-in, SB calls all-in for $140, Cobalt calls all-in for $152Any other way to play it?

[Zach6668 513]

Please post in the right forum, donkey.

[CobaltBlue 662]

So this is super standard or something?

[Zach6668 513]

lol, from my limited NL experiences, I'd say: "maybe".I mean, results orientated thinking say this money is getting in anyways, whether you play it fast or not.Once you smooth call the flop, which certainly is dry enough, you've decided to let them bet their hand, and you really aren't deep enough to get away from it or anything once we hit the turn, well, at least after we call the first $99.It seems to be one of those hands where you either are gonna win a monster pot, or lose a monster pot.It looks like SB has AA and is refusing to believe that one of us have a king, or he has a AK, KQ type hand, or the other guy has a weaker king or 66 maybe.It's tough to say, us not raising at any point really takes away from the info, but like I said, I don't think we can fold at any point anymore anyways.- Zach

[Lavitz 0]

I think you're dead here. It is 4 handed but this type of action is ridiculous. You said CO was loose-passive but he certainly woke up with something here. Now he probably has a king but since you also said he was loose it's very possible you have his kicker beat since he limp/called. I probably fold turn when SB fires again unless I have a good read on him being reckless. It's pretty obvious someone has another K and he fires anyways. Given all the flop action it would be weak for SB to try to fire without at least a K here. It seems certain someone has 66, K6, KQ, AK or K8. I really dont know how you can be ahead.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Bodog 2/3 NLHE (4-handed)CO $1340SB $291Cobalt $303Cobalt is BB w/ K J . I haven't been at the table very long (a round or two), so no significant reads. I have seen Button complain about CO being loose-passive pre-flop.Pre-flop:CO calls, 1 fold, SB raises to $6, Cobalt calls, CO callsFlop ($18): K K 6 (3 players)SB bets $14, Cobalt calls, CO raises to $46, SB calls, Cobalt callsTurn ($156): 8 (3 players)SB bets $99, Cobalt calls, CO goes all-in, SB calls all-in for $140, Cobalt calls all-in for $152Any other way to play it?

Meh. Raise on the flop mehbee.

[erac22 0]

I'd say you're rarely winning here.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I'd say you're rarely winning here.

I'd agree with that...but where do we dump?Sickly enough, CO was sitting on AK and SB had 66...so that was fun.

[No_Neck 0]

I'd agree with that...but where do we dump?Sickly enough, CO was sitting on AK and SB had 66...so that was fun.

LOL for some reason I thought that this was heads up. This is much more interesting than I orginally thought.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I'd agree with that...but where do we dump?

Honestly, dump it on the flop after the CO squeezes the two of you and the SB still calls. Until this point, you've played fine. Your call on the flop indicates that you likely have a King. The CO raises anyway, saying that he isn't worried about you having a king. Now, it gets back to the SB and he sees your call (likely a King) and the CO's raise, which also represents strength, but he calls anyway. It is at this point that you have a CLEAR fold. The CO may be bluffing but the SB certainly is not, and if that's the case, you have 3 outs.It looks standard and it is. Standard fold on the flop after action is back to you.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Honestly, dump it on the flop after the CO squeezes the two of you and the SB still calls. Until this point, you've played fine. Your call on the flop indicates that you likely have a King. The CO raises anyway, saying that he isn't worried about you having a king. Now, it gets back to the SB and he sees your call (likely a King) and the CO's raise, which also represents strength, but he calls anyway. It is at this point that you have a CLEAR fold. The CO may be bluffing but the SB certainly is not, and if that's the case, you have 3 outs.It looks standard and it is. Standard fold on the flop after action is back to you.

The problem is that I don't really have much in the way of reads. CO can easily have a crappier king on this flop and SB can have AA or something else wonky. Additionally, I'm not sure why it's clear that we likely have a King from our initial call...I think our range is larger than that and our opponents may not be good enough to even try to put us on a range. If we've got KQ, does it become closer in your mind? I think KT starts getting into the foldable range and AK getting more towards unfoldable. KQ and KJ are really the stickier spots.

[mk 11]

i really think i let it go on the flop after CO pops it and SB calls. they both have weaker kings there...never... i wouldn't expect to be behind both of them, lol, but definitely one of them with that action.

[Acid_Knight 2]

The problem is that I don't really have much in the way of reads. CO can easily have a crappier king on this flop and SB can have AA or something else wonky. Additionally, I'm not sure why it's clear that we likely have a King from our initial call...I think our range is larger than that and our opponents may not be good enough to even try to put us on a range. If we've got KQ, does it become closer in your mind? I think KT starts getting into the foldable range and AK getting more towards unfoldable. KQ and KJ are really the stickier spots.

It's not clear that you have a king, but is it a definite consideration as both other players act that you might be lurking with a king in there and that influences the action and makes their hands appear stronger since you could easily have a king here.I honestly think that KQ, while a little stronger than KJ is the same hand here. From the play, I think it looks strongly like the SB has AK. He raised preflop OOP and is sticking around on this flop. He's the one I'm worried about. If he hasn't folded, I don't think he has AA and I don't think he raises KQ OOP. Against one opponent, you can't be faulted for getting your chips in here.In a 3 way pot, if you're holding a K, then what can the other 2 people have? They're certainly not BOTH bluffing and since the board is dry, they're not semi-bluffing. If I have AK, I'm figuring I'd chop the pot with one of them, but I'm still worried about my hand if I'm you becuase I'd say "ok, I have AK, and if the SB has AK, what the hell does the CO have becuase he seems strong too, but we have all of the cards..."It's a mistake to assign the SB a hand like AA here. After you flat call on the flop, it HAS to be in his mind that you have a K. After the CO then raises, he could get caught between if he has AA and most sane people are folding there.If you have AK here, I'm not thrilled about getting my money in (as I outlined above) but I have no choice. If I have KQ or KJ, I think it's a necessary fold on the flop given the action.

[Acid_Knight 2]

they both have weaker kings there...never...

That's a good observation. Especially since there are only 4 kings in the deck

[run_goot 0]

I think you dump it on the turn because the CO's raise after SB bet and your call represents hands that beat you. When you don't catch your jack on the turn and the SB once again leads out, you have to know that the CO is going with his hand so how good do you feel about KJ at this point? You're basically praying that it's AA vs KJ vs K-10, and the odds of that specific confrontation aren't too good.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I'd agree with that...but where do we dump?Sickly enough, CO was sitting on AK and SB had 66...so that was fun.

LOL, you weren't beating anyone. Pretty standard double cooler.

[turd ferguson 1]

I actually think you can get away here if you raise the SB on the flop. Lets say you make it $60 after he bets $14. Can the CO call without having you beat? I don't think so. Then, if the CO calls the SB probably re-pops it if he's a good player, and you can lay your hand down. If they both smooth call you're almost certain you're in trouble. If the SB checks you can check behind him. Then the CO will bet for sure and almost certainly get raised by the SB, and you can lay it down.If the SB leads the turn with a decent sized bet you can't call knowing you have the CO behind you who cold called a bet and a raise on the flop, and you get away again. Am I way off here?

[etip 0]

I actually think you can get away here if you raise the SB on the flop. Lets say you make it $60 after he bets $14. Can the CO call without having you beat? I don't think so. Then, if the CO calls the SB probably re-pops it if he's a good player, and you can lay your hand down. If they both smooth call you're almost certain you're in trouble. If the SB checks you can check behind him. Then the CO will bet for sure and almost certainly get raised by the SB, and you can lay it down.If the SB leads the turn with a decent sized bet you can't call knowing you have the CO behind you who cold called a bet and a raise on the flop, and you get away again. Am I way off here?

No, that's almost exactly what I was thinking. Given the pre-flop raise by the SB, I would have been concerned about AK and I would have raised small for an infamous "see-where-I'm-at" bet (although I rarely do that). This would have telegraphed your hand, but that's ok because you don't want to trap in this situation since usually you will be trapping yourself (...which is what you did ). I would not raise to $60...seems like too much. There are no draws to push off. I would have raised to somewhere between $28-$36 total ($14-$22 more). No one is going to call any raise you make, even a min-raise, unless they have the 4th King -- and a lower kicker is hard to imagine, especially from the SB given the pre-flop action.HOWEVER you gave yourself the chance to save a few $$ when you just called the flop. After the raise and call, that's where you should have dumped.

[Hector Cerif 0]

Thought of this hand as I was reading super system:"Even when you flop a very good hand like two pair or trips, you could be in jeopardy. If the flop was K-K-2 to your K-Q, you could once again be in big trouble if someone’s got A-K. The difference here is that you probably won’t be able to get away from your hand and you’ll have to go ahead and lose a lot of money."-DBDoesn't say if he'd call with KJ but, your close to pretty good company anywho...

[Acid_Knight 2]

Thought of this hand as I was reading super system:"Even when you flop a very good hand like two pair or trips, you could be in jeopardy. If the flop was K-K-2 to your K-Q, you could once again be in big trouble if someone’s got A-K. The difference here is that you probably won’t be able to get away from your hand and you’ll have to go ahead and lose a lot of money."-DBDoesn't say if he'd call with KJ but, your close to pretty good company anywho...

Uhh, yeah, but that's heads up. This isn't.

[DrZebra 0]

Bodog 2/3 NLHE (4-handed)CO $1340SB $291Cobalt $303Cobalt is BB w/ K J . I haven't been at the table very long (a round or two), so no significant reads. I have seen Button complain about CO being loose-passive pre-flop.Pre-flop:CO calls, 1 fold, SB raises to $6, Cobalt calls, CO callsFlop ($18): K K 6 (3 players)SB bets $14, Cobalt calls, CO raises to $46, SB calls, Cobalt callsTurn ($156): 8 (3 players)SB bets $99, Cobalt calls, CO goes all-in, SB calls all-in for $140, Cobalt calls all-in for $152Any other way to play it?

Looks like a case of "I think my opponents might be idiots"-itis. Personally I think it's the biggest leak in my game: not giving enough credit to idiots. Unless you've gotta solid read on this particular hand, you can't accurately account for widening the range of hands (especially of two opponents) because one of them tends to be loose.

[etip 0]

Looks like a case of "I think my opponents might be idiots"-itis. Personally I think it's the biggest leak in my game: not giving enough credit to idiots. Unless you've gotta solid read on this particular hand, you can't accurately account for widening the range of hands (especially of two opponents) because one of them tends to be loose.

Yeah I thought about this too. Maybe the SB is the type of player who can't let go of 8-8, and the other player regularly limps with K-3 offsuit... I too fall victim to ITMOMBI-itis all too often

[CobaltBlue 662]

After the CO then raises, he could get caught between if he has AA and most sane people are folding there.

Most sane people aren't min-raising 66 from the SB with a limper...you see a lot of "insane" stuff at this particular level/site/handedness.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I actually think you can get away here if you raise the SB on the flop. Lets say you make it $60 after he bets $14. Can the CO call without having you beat? I don't think so. Then, if the CO calls the SB probably re-pops it if he's a good player, and you can lay your hand down. If they both smooth call you're almost certain you're in trouble. If the SB checks you can check behind him. Then the CO will bet for sure and almost certainly get raised by the SB, and you can lay it down.If the SB leads the turn with a decent sized bet you can't call knowing you have the CO behind you who cold called a bet and a raise on the flop, and you get away again. Am I way off here?

I didn't really want to "see where I was at" in this situation (as etip phrased it), though that would've been valuable. I felt like this was a WA/WB scenario; f I raise...I definitely shouldn't be getting action from anything I beat...so I chose to try to call down. Given the action though, I think I've got to get away from this.DrZ, I think you characterized what went down pretty well.

[etip 0]

I didn't really want to "see where I was at" in this situation (as etip phrased it), though that would've been valuable. I felt like this was a WA/WB scenario

That's the point though -- you don't want to be in situations where it is EITHER WA/WB and you don't know which... if you always just hope you're way ahead then... that's no way to play poker. Sometimes at these limits you have to telegraph your hand in order to figure out what your otherwise un-readable opponents might have... and I think that this might be one of those situations.Having said that, I do see your reason for smooth-calling the flop - if the SB was a good player he would stop betting a pair of As or Qs or Js... but he might have been a bad post-flop player, I don't know... in which case a trap-call might work against a really bad player here (even on a paired board with no draws, at these limits). BUT yeah, after the re-raise from the CO and the call from the SB I would have either folded or pushed all-in (because it's obvious that someone either has you beat or if not then they have something good enough to pay you off with), but probably folded.If the SB had folded then I probably would have gone broke against the CO because his range of hands is wide enough to include a K-3, K-4, or even A-6. But the SB's call immediately makes me think AK due to the pre-flop raise.About the ITMOMBI-itis -I think that a lot of players get in similar situations and blame it on the fact that they can never read their opponents at this level ... the secret is that you just have to learn to speak the language and play straight-up, obvious poker most of the time, always looking out for how your strong hand could be beaten by hands that you would never play yourself. Trapping rarely works unless you are heads-up with a well-hidden monster against a slightly vulnerable hand. I have found that a lot of times when I have been "trapping" the only thing it accomplishes is getting my opponent to stick his chips in before I do... in other words, if I had been aggressive on every street instead of letting him lead the action, he STILL would have called me down simply because he can't get away from top pair, so my trap actually accomplished nothing. Of course I'm talking about weak players who rarely bluff. Maniacs are obviously trappable in any setting.