Live Hand With 99

[DrZebra 0]

Hero has 99 on button2 limpers, hero calls, fold, call.FLOP: T64 rainbowcheck, check, bet, hero calls, fold, foldQuestion:a.) ifTurn: 5bet, hero???b.) ifTurn: Tbet, hero???c.) ifTurn: Kbet, hero???

[Zach6668 513]

Raise preflop.Raise flop.To answer your questions. It's hard to say because you played the hand suckily to the point that we have no information. Just raise the flop please.I would raise the 5, the T, and probably call down the K, if I chose to play it passively thus far.

[DrZebra 0]

Raise preflop.Raise flop.To answer your questions. It's hard to say because you played the hand suckily to the point that we have no information. Just raise the flop please.I would raise the 5, the T, and probably call down the K, if I chose to play it passively thus far.

You're right about the flop raise, but way off about the preflop raise with 2 limpers in front.(The hostile tone deters future comments. Lose it.)

[Zach6668 513]

You're right about the flop raise, but way off about the preflop raise with 2 limpers in front.

What's your cutoff? Do you raise TT and JJ?I raise 99 there every time. It's a simple value raise.What %age do you think they are limping with here? What are the stakes here?If they are exceptionally tight, then sure limp along, but I still think we probably have an equity edge.

[DrZebra 0]

What's your cutoff? Do you raise TT and JJ?I raise 99 there every time. It's a simple value raise.What %age do you think they are limping with here? What are the stakes here?If they are exceptionally tight, then sure limp along, but I still think we probably have an equity edge.

I think in this position with 2 limpers I raise JJ and not TT (I also raise a few big suited hands (AK, AQ, and KQ).I say "I think" because I haven't run the numbers, but I don't think we get to exploit our equity edge unless we run a hot/cold board (given that we're folding in a 4-way flop when an ace hits or two overs to our pp, JJ seems to be about right.)Stakes are 9/18 with a kill (this hand was 9/18) and the game is fairly loose. Limpers could have any suited ace, KT, suited one-gappers...

[Zach6668 513]

I would still raise TT here 100% of the time.99 is a lot closer, but I would still lean towards raising it.I haven't run it either, but I would venture to say that we have greater than 1/n (where n=players in pot) equity in this pot.We also have the ultimate position which means we can check the flop or fold a bad flop if there's action, etc.

[DrZebra 0]

I would still raise TT here 100% of the time.99 is a lot closer, but I would still lean towards raising it.I haven't run it either, but I would venture to say that we have greater than 1/n (where n=players in pot) equity in this pot.We also have the ultimate position which means we can check the flop or fold a bad flop if there's action, etc.

There is little doubt we have greater than 1/n, but I don't see how we get full value from that equity if we can be bluffed off if an ace hits the flop or if KxQ flops...this is not hot/cold.

[Zach6668 513]

I don't understand your term hot/cold.

[DrZebra 0]

I don't understand your term hot/cold.

Running a board with no betting (since that's what equity valuations are based on.)

[Zach6668 513]

Running a board with no betting (since that's what equity valuations are based on.)

Ok, but I can't imagine we get into much trouble postflop here, given we are decent postflop, and we have position.You seem to think we will get bluff when aces, kings, queens, etc hit, but we can also use those as our own bluff cards if we'd like. Position is a powerful thing. So is having the lead, IMO. Combine those two and I really prefer raising here.99 is probably my cutoff line though.I would also factor in the tightness of the blinds into this decision.

[Moneyball16 0]

Raise 99 every single time. No matter how tight/loose the blinds are. Also it doesnt matter how tihgt the limpers are either. In a live game no one is tight passive enough to not raise 99 there. Maybe just limp when a normally TAG player who like to l/rr limps utg you can consider limping.Your missing alot of value not raising these handson the button. Position + huge equity edge = mobney in your pocket.Also like Zach said I would just raise the flop.

[Run it Thrice 0]

Me, I'm just calling preflop. I don't like getting too involved when I will have a hard time predicting what everyone else has, and practically any over-card could beat me with this many players. This could just mean I'm not as good postflop as many of you. I would have a hard time not losing more money when an overcard hits, which will happen the vast majority of the time. And if I'm going to release to any show of strength when an overcard hits, which it usually will, then I don't want to get too invested. I'm raising tens for sure though, so I guess it's hard for me to really say there is a clear line between nines and tens. I'm not entirely sure either play is that much better or worse than the other. I honestly don't know, however, so hopefully someone will show me why one move is much better and set us all straight.

[Zach6668 513]

Me, I'm just calling preflop. I don't like getting too involved when I will have a hard time predicting what everyone else has, and practically any over-card could beat me with this many players.

There's only 2 players in so far...

[TheCinciKid 0]

Haven't read replies...Raise pre-flop. And/or raise the flop. Hand plays way differently from there. I really have a hard time answering the abc questions, b/c you put yourself in a very tough situation with you pre-flop and flop play. I think it's probably a fold though with no read.

[Viper_13 0]

Unless you're hoping the blinds will come along so you get value if you hit your set, I don't see any reason not to raise. With no reads listed, I can't say that the limpers definitely have Ax, or Kx. If you raise, and an ace or king hits, you can put a lot of pressure on them. If you're worried about being bluffed, I would be more worried limping than raising. I would tend to bluff weakness more than strength.I believe 99 has an equity edge on the widest of EP limping hands with two players. I'm rarely calling with a pp here.Flop would be raise or fold, depending on reads. What are you planning on doing on the turn once you get there?

[Run it Thrice 0]

I'm coming around on the raise. I still have a hard time seeing it as being that much better than limping, but I can definitely see some advantages. Interesting question though for those of you who would raise 99 here with no hesitation: Would you raise 88 in this position as well? Surely not 77.As an interesting sidenote, this exact situation happened to me last night. UTG and UTG+1 limped, folded to me on the button, I called with my pocket nines, sb folded and bb called. Flop came k-j-x. BB bet, two callers, I folded. Who knows how the hand would have played had I raised.The biggest issue I have with raising is that you aren't really driving anyone out. Most BBs, especially live, will still call a raise with cards over ten. You often aren't getting that call when they don't have a card over ten. Likewise, limping range from UTG includes many more hands with tens or higher than those with less. As UTG's range tightens up more and more the play becomes more and more questionable in my mind.Live, I think it could be the best play, online I just can't convince myself to raise in this spot. Again though, I'm not saying I'm right, that's just the way I usually play nines. I readily admit that mid-pocket pairs (88, 99, and to a lesser degree TT) are one of my biggest question marks.Edit: I think I'm wrong about this, I think raising here probably is the right play, someone talk me into it!

[DrZebra 0]

I can see the argument that it's hard to analyze the turn play when the flop should have been raised. My bad.However, I must argue again against the preflop raise and here's why.Let's say that 99 is a slight favorite over the other 3 hands.Are you truly "raising for value" by raising preflop.35% of the time the flop will contain at least two overs. 6% of the time it will be all 3.Roughly 15.5% of the time two overs will flop AND none of the other 3 players will hit them.If you plan on folding even a third of the time two or more overs flop 4-way, then raising "for value" preflop is clearly wrong.In other words I'm arguing/asking: isn't this hand a testament to the flaw in the hot/cold valuation technique.

[aim786 0]

I can see the argument that it's hard to analyze the turn play when the flop should have been raised. My bad.However, I must argue again against the preflop raise and here's why.Let's say that 99 is a slight favorite over the other 3 hands.Are you truly "raising for value" by raising preflop.35% of the time the flop will contain at least two overs. 6% of the time it will be all 3.Roughly 15.5% of the time two overs will flop AND none of the other 3 players will hit them.If you plan on folding even a third of the time two or more overs flop 4-way, then raising "for value" preflop is clearly wrong.In other words I'm arguing/asking: isn't this hand a testament to the flaw in the hot/cold valuation technique.

You seem quite intelligent (or you've done your homework) when it comes to the math of poker. However, you seem to be off a little bit on how to use/interpret these #s in poker situations. Many players feel that certain raises pf in limit are just a bit too "light". Why raise AKo pf with 2 limpers in front if I'm only going to flop a pair ~30% of the time? Why raise 99/88 in the same situation? However, many of these exact same players overlook another skill: their ability to play postflop. If your going to CB AK into 2 limpers on a T86, get a c/r and a cold call in front of you and decide to call down with AK UI then that is a big leak. Again, if you have 99 and the flop comes KQx, you get a donk and a raise in front of you, but you get stubborn and call down, then THAT is a big leak.Now, I'm not dissing the way you play, or saying you suck postflop. But here's an important thing to keep in mind: ultimately, poker is a game of learning. If your not willing to put yourself into this situation over and over again, you'll stunt your growth as a player. 99 is an easy raise pf, 88 is close, 77 is really close and below I'll limp. Maybe the first few times you'll call down in the 99 vs KQx situation, but slowly you'll learn and improve as a player. Keep studying the game, and posting on the forums, and I guarantee you one day you will see raising 99 pf there is easy. Believe me, all of the people (including me) telling you to raise 99 pf thought the same way you did once upon a time.As you become a better player, you want to pound more and more edges. Obviously, the edges become thinner, but in the end every edge you exploit the more money you make in the long run.

[DrZebra 0]

You seem quite intelligent (or you've done your homework) when it comes to the math of poker. However, you seem to be off a little bit on how to use/interpret these #s in poker situations. Many players feel that certain raises pf in limit are just a bit too "light". Why raise AKo pf with 2 limpers in front if I'm only going to flop a pair ~30% of the time? Why raise 99/88 in the same situation? However, many of these exact same players overlook another skill: their ability to play postflop. If your going to CB AK into 2 limpers on a T86, get a c/r and a cold call in front of you and decide to call down with AK UI then that is a big leak. Again, if you have 99 and the flop comes KQx, you get a donk and a raise in front of you, but you get stubborn and call down, then THAT is a big leak.

These examples are so simple we don't need to run numbers. With AK preflop you likely have an equity edge AND postflop your situation will be transparent. (And no one is saying to call down in an ugly 99 situation like that.)

Now, I'm not dissing the way you play, or saying you suck postflop. But here's an important thing to keep in mind: ultimately, poker is a game of learning. If your not willing to put yourself into this situation over and over again, you'll stunt your growth as a player. 99 is an easy raise pf, 88 is close, 77 is really close and below I'll limp.

Your lines look arbitrary.This is not obvious to me--what are your thoughts.Almost 20% of the flops with two overs will miss 3 opponents when you have 88.As I said it's 15.5% for 99.For TT it's just over 11%.If you're folding to two overs 100% of the time then your 3 opponents need to bluff the flop roughly 20% of the time to make raising TT incorrect. But you're not folding 100% and they're not bluffing 20%.You're saying because with 99 you're folding to two overs 95% of the time (?) and your opponents are bluffing less than 15% of the time (?) it is correct to raise. It's this conclusion I'm not sure of.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I see what you're saying DrZ. My interpretation of your argument is this:With 99 here, we'll flop so marginally so often that we'll be unable to maximize our value effectively. We'll be put into situations where we'll be forced to either try to snap off a bluff, or check behind on a dirty turn/river, decreasing the value of our hand. That being said, it becomes much easier to play this hand effectively if we have a significant level of control over our opponents. If our opponents are playing rather straightforward against us and taking fewer shots on ugly boards, then we can play the hand more aggressively, confident that we'll be able to come closer to maximizing our value. If our opponents are willing to gamble more, and put in bets and raises with weaker hands, the situation becomes murkier, and playing in a multiway pot with a hand that will often be tough to play on many streets postflop becomes a more daunting task. Oftentimes, raising here gives us a few things, namely:1) Postflop Fold Equity (people will be less willing to peel with overs, or a mediocre pair)2) Control (people will play much more straightforward, as they give you credit for a hand)3) A pot contested by fewer players, on average (small blind/big blind)I realize what you're saying here, that we'll often lose more money when behind than we'll take in when ahead, and I think you're on the right track, but it depends on the games and the action much of the time. We don't raise JUST because we're ahead, and would show a profit if we ran the hand down, we raise because we're ahead, AND there are other benefits.Keep discussing this. I'm retired from poker, so my opinion is useless.Wang

[Zach6668 513]

Keep discussing this. I'm retired from poker, so my opinion is useless.Wang

Unretire. Plz. KThx.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Unretire. Plz. KThx.

Nope.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

Wow, this place is retarded-dead nowadays. My brother is making the transition from NL to LHE. I think he posts over at 2+2, but I'll send him here and have you guys give him a hand. Wang

[Zach6668 513]

Wow, this place is retarded-dead nowadays. My brother is making the transition from NL to LHE. I think he posts over at 2+2, but I'll send him here and have you guys give him a hand. Wang

Please do.SH LHE forum is a lot busier than these, but we miss the good posters/players.I still think the Micro and LHE forums should be combined.

[CoranMoran 0]

Before reading replies...I consider a prelop raise here a must.- Fold Equity. - Minimize the field. Our 9s are so vulenrable to so many cards, knocking out the blinds is essential.There is just no reason to allow the J4, Q2 type hands a chance to play.Raising the flop is also a must.I will never call down with a very vulnerable 2nd pair and more players to act behind me.It's just a weak play.

Question:a.) ifTurn: 5bet, hero???

Raise

b.) ifTurn: Tbet, hero???

Raise

c.) ifTurn: Kbet, hero???

Raise.Or fold.Just don't call.--CM