Improper Way To Chase Nut Flush Draw?

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Full Tilt .25nl 100bb Full Ring. No reads. Played while eating lunch at work to get happy hour points. Let's break it down:Moooooooooooraaawwwr.Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.10/$0.25 - 9 playersBB mtarasm: $30.56 UTG He Gondorff: $25.39 UTG+1 Hero: $25.00 MP tiltpokersick: $25.00 MP2 LuxiKeks: $34.93 HJ c4rn1v0r: $12.53 CO jack5858: $14.30 Button Tapdancer2: $20.05 SB Birger89: $16.88 Preflop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG+1 with (9 players)He Gondorff raises to $1, Hero calls $1, 4 folds, Tapdancer2 calls $1, Birger89 calls $0.90, mtarasm calls $0.75----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^ Flatted here with sole purpose of looking for the flush. My A is obviously no good especially after the other callers. ^^----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Flop: ($5.00) (5 players)Birger89 bets $2, mtarasm calls $2, He Gondorff calls $2, Hero calls $2, Tapdancer2 folds------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^ Here my thinking was just flat with so many people in the hand. No need to inflate this any more? I have 9 outs for the nuts and 4 outs for the str8 that is probably no good, but good protection against a flopped set. Bad thinking here?? ^^------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Turn: ($13.00) (4 players)Birger89 checks, mtarasm bets $12.75, He Gondorff folds, Hero calls $12.75, Birger89 folds-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^^ *****PROBLEM**** With a brick here, basically villain is making this bet trying to kill off the drawers. Obviously he has at least a high pair, set, stra8, or balls to stab at it and hope everyone is weak. A high is no good here.Basically, I am risking my lunch money for today with 9 nut outs (maybe 6 at this point. Some had to have been folded) the gut shot str8 is still a possible 4 outs, but really hoping for a diamond.^^-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------River: ($38.50) (2 players)mtarasm bets $13.60, Hero calls $9.25, and is all in-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^ Call me Mr. Binkles!!! I can take it from here...... ^^------------------------------------------------------------mtarasm showed , and lost with three of a kind, QueensHero showed , and won ($54.15) with a flush, Ace highHero won $54.15(Rake: $2.85)Basically, was the turn just too spwey and a huge gamble, or is my math/thinking ok here? Thoughts with explanations please.

[KingJames 11]

Chris, nice pot! Don't post those results It biases responsesOn the turn, you are not getting proper pot odds, and with the stack size the implied odds might make up for it. I'm on my phone so I haven't done the maths...I might be tempted to raise/get it in on the flop. We have a gutter, nfd and over cards... weeeeeeeWe're like >50% vs an over pair I think.Are you in for November Nine pool?

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Chris, nice pot! Don't post those results It biases responsesOn the turn, you are not getting proper pot odds, and with the stack size the implied odds might make up for it. I'm on my phone so I haven't done the maths...I might be tempted to raise/get it in on the flop. We have a gutter, nfd and over cards... weeeeeeeWe're like >50% vs an over pair I think.Are you in for November Nine pool?

Yea, I know not to post results, but I was more concered with basically what you said about odds. Need a math lesson here I guess. I was basically thinking with several people in the pot, ride along and then try to get it in when the nuts hit, but it would also be really obvious when it does hit. I am thinking at the turn I am a 3:1 dog here at best, possibly 4:1. At work and don't have stove here.Bon't know about a nov. nine pool, but if it involves gambling, sign me up! Just tell me where to go.

[QED 4]

Seeing as no one has beat me to it yet I'll put in the standard fullring nit reply, fold preflop.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Seeing as no one has beat me to it yet I'll put in the standard fullring nit reply, fold preflop.

Yea, I know, but I play on the "too" loose side. Like I said, only played looking for the flush. If an A and no diamonds comes up, EZ fold with the players/action.

[SuperJon 175]

Yea, I know, but I play on the "too" loose side. Like I said, only played looking for the flush. If an A and no diamonds comes up, EZ fold with the players/action.

There's a difference between loose and bad (no offense). I don't play full ring cash, but I'm fairly certain against an UTG open, A8s should be a standard fold. If you want to play on the loose side, then just play 6 max.

[CorvairShaggy 5]

There's a difference between loose and bad (no offense). I don't play full ring cash, but I'm fairly certain against an UTG open, A8s should be a standard fold. If you want to play on the loose side, then just play 6 max.

OK. So, would the general rule be never to flat looking for nut-flush after an UTG raise (no reads, of coarse). Also, could the same be said with PPs from 22-99? You would basically be set-mining the same as nut-flush drawing. Just trying to get my poker thinking on the right track.

[BaseJester 1]

Fold preflop. The UTG player should have a strong hand making your ace questionable for a pair plus you may be squeezed out of the hand by a reraise even before the flop.You might raise the flop.On the turn, you're still getting pot odds to call. You're underestimating your outs. You obviously don't know that your ace is live, but the gutshot counts.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt  44  games	 0.005 secs	 8,800  games/secBoard: 4c 6d 7d JsDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	34.091%	  34.09% 	00.00% 				15 			0.00   { Ad8d }Hand 1: 	65.909%	  65.91% 	00.00% 				29 			0.00   { QcQs }

It's correct to call but you're still taking the worst of it on the turn and losing money on that action. You caught a dream flop but put in most of the money as a significant dog.

[SuperJon 175]

OK. So, would the general rule be never to flat looking for nut-flush after an UTG raise (no reads, of coarse). Also, could the same be said with PPs from 22-99? You would basically be set-mining the same as nut-flush drawing. Just trying to get my poker thinking on the right track.

Not the same. You have better odds to hit a set (7.5:1) vs. a flush (118:1). Plus, your implied odds to set mine are going to be higher than when you're just playing for a flush. This is due to the fact that you're more likely to stack someone when you flop a set, but you won't always have the same results when you flop a flush.

[QED 4]

The thing is with a hand like this you have two ways to win a pot like and they are bink sauce and fold equity when we jam our draw on a semi bluff. When it comes to binking we have to get paid enough the times we hit to cover all the times we don't and as you can see when you are playing draws from utg+1 chances are we are going to be OOP to one or more people is pretty high as well as the UTG raiser who has a strong range. No one is going to let us draw cheaply, the people behind us or the guy with the strong range and this is really going to cut into your profits. You also have to remember just because you bink doesn't mean you get paid. There are ways to maths hammer this you can look up to see if it's profitable. With fold equity and jamming it on a semi bluff when we have to think about the range of hands we are going to be up against and if we actually have fold equity or not. Poker stove is a good tool to play around here but the general concept we have is that when we are flipping or close to it then our profitability is improved when are folding because they be fearing the jam. What you will find is that UTG has strong range and as such we is gonna have problems getting fold equity out of him, then we have the guys behind that are likely set mining and if you get action out of them you will also find that bare flush draws aren't best friends with ranges that include sets

[rrumsey 0]

fold pre, flops meh. dear god how could you put so much in the pot drawing on the turn on a call. wtf! you know better

[BaseJester 1]

dear god how could you put so much in the pot drawing on the turn on a call. wtf! you know better

[CorvairShaggy 5]

Thanks for the responses. I see your points. Basically, long term flush drawing Ax is not profitable. I know it is tough to get paid properly on a flush, but it is tempting when you have 2-3 players in the pot as well, but I did not know that until after the flop. I take it that this would still be a fold preflop if you were on BB/SB and the action is still the same?? Is this where pot odds would come into play, or still a fold regardless?

[CorvairShaggy 5]

fold pre, flops meh. dear god how could you put so much in the pot drawing on the turn on a call. wtf! you know better

The gamble devil on my shoulder made me do it. At least I didn't just shove-over which was my first instinct. I was thinking no hit, it only costs me my lunch money, and I save $12.50. To me it really was a tough call, but I see know that I need to put the reigns on Ax suited hands. Actually I did not know better, that is why I posted here. My cash game skills absolutely suck. Been getting better in tourneys tho. Need to practice/study more on the cash games. Even though I have posted a slight profit in 5 months of cash games, I think it is mostly luck, which I can be really good at sometimes .

[mtdesmoines 3]

There's a difference between loose and bad (no offense). I don't play full ring cash, but I'm fairly certain against an UTG open, A8s should be a standard fold. If you want to play on the loose side, then just play 6 max three-bet this PF and shove flop.

[dms26 3]

The gamble devil on my shoulder made me do it. At least I didn't just shove-over which was my first instinct. I was thinking no hit, it only costs me my lunch money, and I save $12.50. To me it really was a tough call, but I see know that I need to put the reigns on Ax suited hands. Actually I did not know better, that is why I posted here. My cash game skills absolutely suck. Been getting better in tourneys tho. Need to practice/study more on the cash games. Even though I have posted a slight profit in 5 months of cash games, I think it is mostly luck, which I can be really good at sometimes .

The bolded is a really bad thought process if you are trying to become a winning cash game player. You have to think of it as risking 50BB's on the turn, not the amount of money. At the micro stakes you can justify any call by saying you aren't risking much, and you're going to end up losing a ton of money over time.

[fighter 4]

I don't know why you guys are so against calling this pre flop. At this limit you are very likely to see the flop 4+ ways and extremely unlikely to face a squeeze. Since we have the nut flush draw, We dominate all other draws 45,56,67,89s ect. If this was a higher limit where people are likely to 3 bet or don't call as wide and light then this should be a fold but I think should be fine at this level. I don't mind 3 betting this pre if you have some reads on the original raiser. I think the flop should be a raise, Calling should still be profitable though. Turn is close but I would still call since he is likely to be semi bluffing as he didn't raise that draw heavy board on flop. River try not to mis-click

[pokerinc 0]

I don't know why you guys are so against calling this pre flop. At this limit you are very likely to see the flop 4+ ways and extremely unlikely to face a squeeze. Since we have the nut flush draw, We dominate all other draws 45,56,67,89s ect. If this was a higher limit where people are likely to 3 bet or don't call as wide and light then this should be a fold but I think should be fine at this level. I don't mind 3 betting this pre if you have some reads on the original raiser. I think the flop should be a raise, Calling should still be profitable though. Turn is close but I would still call since he is likely to be semi bluffing as he didn't raise that draw heavy board on flop. River try not to mis-click

UTG +1 is why everyone is against this call. Too many people still to act. It doesn't matter what limit, that's not a winning play. And 3-betting a UTG raise from that position with a8ss really shouldn't be in your head at all. That's FPS grossness with 7 people to act behind you.Villain comes alive for a huge pot bet on the turn. That is never a semi bluff. That's a 'the pot's big enough I'd like to take it down now thanks' bet.The turn call's not good. The flop I can see your thought process on flatting, but with the gutshot outs on top of the nut flush it's going to make you more to just start firing early so you don't face gross turns where the right play is surrender.

[mtdesmoines 3]

three-bet this PF and shove flop

[BaseJester 1]

I'm confident that calling the turn is slightly profitable. The hero is getting correct pot odds or very nearly so even considering rake. If we count implied odds for anything (and we should), then this is a call.

[fighter 4]

UTG +1 is why everyone is against this call. Too many people still to act. It doesn't matter what limit, that's not a winning play. And 3-betting a UTG raise from that position with a8ss really shouldn't be in your head at all. That's FPS grossness with 7 people to act behind you.

It really really does. There are a lot of people left to act. Those people are bad players though. Almost all are going to be weak passive. You are not going to get 3 bet light. Next to no one 3bets an UTG light. Next to no one 3bets 9max light. Next to no one 3bets at 25nl light. AA and KK are hard to get especially if we have an Ace. If you are going to be 3betting light then You have an ace blocker and it is suited. What more could you ask for?

[BaseJester 1]

It really really does. There are a lot of people left to act. Those people are bad players though. Almost all are going to be weak passive. You are not going to get 3 bet light. Next to no one 3bets an UTG light. Next to no one 3bets 9max light. Next to no one 3bets at 25nl light. AA and KK are hard to get especially if we have an Ace.

I think these are all valid arguments, but I also think you're just underestimating how crap this hand is against the range of the raiser and plus a bunch of unknown hands. I don't even open myself with A8s UTG+1.

If you are going to be 3betting light then You have an ace blocker and it is suited. What more could you ask for?

Decent position?

[Ninja Ace 1]

I think these are all valid arguments, but I also think you're just underestimating how crap this hand is against the range of the raiser and plus a bunch of unknown hands.

I'm entirely sure he does understand how bad it is at showdown.As far as being the aggressor and playability on the other hand... :)What fighter is getting at is actually better, in general, for higher limits where showdown frequency *decreases*As far as the hand goes I'd have to say calling is probably slightly > than raising OTF simply because someone could make a second best hand that stacks them as we complete on the turn versus the raise/gonuts line that makes us flip or take the pot. Either way our hand is awesome and the only mistake is folding.On the turn we surely have enough outs to call a PSB and hope to get paid a % of the time when we hit. Also, results aside, you can't discount the A completely, no less the straight. Even if you're only putting money in the pot when you make the nuts, and try to check down everything else, you will still see additional profits every time you hit an out you didn't count on and it goes to showdown.

[Nashtak 0]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^^^ *****PROBLEM**** With a brick here, basically villain is making this bet trying to kill off the drawers. Obviously he has at least a high pair, set, stra8, or balls to stab at it and hope everyone is weak. A high is no good here.Basically, I am risking my lunch money for today with 9 nut outs (maybe 6 at this point. Some had to have been folded) the gut shot str8 is still a possible 4 outs, but really hoping for a diamond.^^-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmwut?----Oops, necro'd. It's all you guys fault anyway, be more active