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Opener is pretty loose aggressive (about 400 hands)Other player is nitty (only 50 hands or so), but turned out to be more tag after awhile.I don't mind getting it in against the opener, but with two players in, I took a more cautious approach on the turn. Thoughts?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comButton ($24.65)SB ($25.80)Hero (BB) ($51.35)UTG ($25)MP ($40.12)Preflop: Hero is BB with K :5c, K :tsUTG bets $0.75, MP calls $0.75, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, UTG calls $2.75, MP calls $2.75Flop: ($10.60) 2 :4h, 5 :club:, J :qh(3 players)Hero bets $5.75, UTG calls $5.75, MP calls $5.75Turn: ($27.85) 8 :jh(3 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $15.75 (All-In), MP calls $15.75, Hero foldsRiver: ($59.35) 7 :3h(2 players, 1 all-in)Total pot: $59.35 | Rake: $2

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Man solid hand to postMy first reaction was wtflol?call and then I saw MP was kind of deep. Flip a coin, maybe. I like the fold honestly, because the only hands we beat are QQ and AJ, and since QQ would 3-bet preflop, that means we're realistically only ahead of AJ. OTOH AJ would play exactly like this - call in position against the LAG, and then call against the squeezer when deep, and postflop just call down, feeling good about yourself when the 3-bettor checks the turn and the LAG shoves. That line makes so much sense that I hate folding here, but when we're somewhat deepish and OOP, it may be best. We also cannot discount the possibility, however remote, of UTG actually having a good hand, and even if he doesn't have us beat, he could have Jx himself, limiting the # of AJ combos for MP to hold and making 55/22 just a bit more likely.

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I have been playing alot of .25nl, but shallow not deep. I know that in the shallow AA KK QQ will 3-bet all-in, no matter what their stack size, even if they are deeper than most. I guess you can rule those hands out here MAYBE. To me, I would guess someone has a set, and someone else is flush drawing high cards, but would not be surprised to see 34 suited either. After rereading your reads, I would guess nitty had either AJ as trystereo said or could have hit the set of Js or another set, and LAG-man could have had even 2-pair j5 here, or a5 clubs??? Probably good fold here though. Not barrelling OOP probably saved you $$$ I would guess. Interested to see what they had in a day or two.

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Too good for the c-thread??We haz a King and a second King, in our hole-cards, where our opponents can't see them. Also one is red and one is black (I think that means we're double sooted which I hear is good in poker).I really like your play!Good analysis trystero, not bad for a guy who doesn't play.

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i think u should have led the turn...if mp has a set, wouldn't he normally raise the turn? (i say normally, because i think he showed up with a set here, and that's why you posted the hand - maybe)...but anyways, i think that because if u have aa/kk, you're gonna most likely call a raise(well,most ppl would) instead of folding...his overcall seems so a/j ish that's hoping you have some sort of missed a/k and will foldi'm wondering what he showed up with...

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if opener is loose aggro then im calling this turn, and maybe c/r with the intention of shipping the flop.

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if opener is loose aggro then im calling this turn, and maybe c/r with the intention of shipping the flop.
??? So the nit does not concern you being in the hand as well?? I guess you ment ship any river. But, what is nit calling $15 more here for? He only has ~$17 left, so by making this play, he looks committed to me. Only thing we are ahead of here is J10, and some draws. IDK . I am just trying to understand. I can see c/r the loose guy, but the nit scares me a bit here. If you c/r shove the turn, could you get nit to fold here after he is like 67% invested here?? If you shove any river you would have to hope he missed, and if a club rolled off you would have to hope he thinks you have the flush, and fold trips. IDK. I am a weak/conservative player, so maybe I am thinking with no balls here?? Probably a read-dependant type situation, and depends if you are up fo the day to make a gambling move?? Still interested to see how this hand played out.
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if opener is loose aggro then im calling this turn, and maybe c/r with the intention of shipping the flop.
My plan was to c/c the opener on the turn and fold if MP called opener's shove (I assume he would be shoving the turn based on stack:pot).When MP just calls the all in on the turn, it's a lot stronger than raising. So based on that and how deep I was with MP, seemed like a pretty clear fold. If I start the hand w/100BB's, I doubt I get away from it though.
??? So the nit does not concern you being in the hand as well?? I guess you ment ship any river. But, what is nit calling $15 more here for? He only has ~$17 left, so by making this play, he looks committed to me. Only thing we are ahead of here is J10, and some draws. IDK . I am just trying to understand. I can see c/r the loose guy, but the nit scares me a bit here. If you c/r shove the turn, could you get nit to fold here after he is like 67% invested here?? If you shove any river you would have to hope he missed, and if a club rolled off you would have to hope he thinks you have the flush, and fold trips. IDK. I am a weak/conservative player, so maybe I am thinking with no balls here?? Probably a read-dependant type situation, and depends if you are up fo the day to make a gambling move?? Still interested to see how this hand played out.
UTG had 10J sootedMP had set of 2's
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??? So the nit does not concern you being in the hand as well??
over 50 hands? could be card dead, could be half asleep, i mean that sample means almost nothing unless he has opened like 3% and thats it. dont let small sample sizes stats lead you to make assumptions you can't know to be true yet. I assume LP until we have enough hands to know different
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When MP just calls the all in on the turn, it's a lot stronger than raising. So based on that and how deep I was with MP, seemed like a pretty clear fold. If I start the hand w/100BB's, I doubt I get away from it though.
if you start the hand with 100bbs jon you're not folding :club:
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over 50 hands? could be card dead, could be half asleep, i mean that sample means almost nothing unless he has opened like 3% and thats it. dont let small sample sizes stats lead you to make assumptions you can't know to be true yet. I assume LP until we have enough hands to know different
True, but from what I have seen at ~9k hands at this level, is that 50 hands is generally good enough to start classifying. Most players at this level don't even sit at the table for 50 hands. They either go bust or double up and leave and go to another table. If you sit at the table and you see 50 hands in one sitting from them, you will know then about how to place them. But, I see your point and some you need 150-200+ to start putting a good label on them. I have seen and benifited several times from guys like UTG here that plays any face card with x, and will be super aggressive (I call them aggrotards) with even bottom pair. You can watch them dump $1oo + off in a matter or 10-15 hands.
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True, but from what I have seen at ~9k hands at this level, is that 50 hands is generally good enough to start classifying. Most players at this level don't even sit at the table for 50 hands. They either go bust or double up and leave and go to another table. If you sit at the table and you see 50 hands in one sitting from them, you will know then about how to place them. But, I see your point and some you need 150-200+ to start putting a good label on them. I have seen and benifited several times from guys like UTG here that plays any face card with x, and will be super aggressive (I call them aggrotards) with even bottom pair. You can watch them dump $1oo + off in a matter or 10-15 hands.
i mean i will be the first to say i dont love stats. i would rather notes and have things that say: "fired 3 barrels after CO open to 3.5X with A9 s c against LP station in the BB on a AK7 (2 spade) X, X spade" tells a lot more about hand valuing and what someones overall strat is a lot better imo then just "25/18/ 2.5 over 54 hands" Not saying that say 3 bet % or cbet% aren't good to know, or that open range cant be very helpful in some spots, overall i think the notes help more. thats just my personal way of wanting to do things thou, to each his own.
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i mean i will be the first to say i dont love stats. i would rather notes and have things that say: "fired 3 barrels after CO open to 3.5X with A9 s c against LP station in the BB on a AK7 (2 spade) X, X spade" tells a lot more about hand valuing and what someones overall strat is a lot better imo then just "25/18/ 2.5 over 54 hands" Not saying that say 3 bet % or cbet% aren't good to know, or that open range cant be very helpful in some spots, overall i think the notes help more. thats just my personal way of wanting to do things thou, to each his own.
I would agree. Notes are alot better, but at .25nl on PokerStars, you see SOOOO many people come and go so fast, that you have to judge them by their play faster, because they may not sit for long. Sometimes it's like a crap shoot against alot of them. I had a situation earlier (at .50 nl so a little different) where I had JJ UTG and I raised 3x, and I had 3 50BB insta shoves when it got back to me. I should have folded, but since I was up at the moment (10 hands) and I was playing full stack, I called. MP had QQ, Button had AQ off, and BB had AQ off. Why did BB call when he had 2 shoves in front of him?? Bad player. Why did I flat it for $25 with JJ when I was the 4th call?? Cause I am a bad player too. (Well, was hoping for a flip a flip and a 1010 pp and the pot looked really sexy too :club: )Basically, until someones proves to you at the .25 NL level that they are competent, they probably are not. At these levels you can learn alot in 50 hands, if they stay there that long. Anyway, good discussion, but I think we are swaying away from the OP topic.
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I would agree. Notes are alot better, but at .25nl on PokerStars, you see SOOOO many people come and go so fast, that you have to judge them by their play faster, because they may not sit for long. Sometimes it's like a crap shoot against alot of them. I had a situation earlier (at .50 nl so a little different) where I had JJ UTG and I raised 3x, and I had 3 50BB insta shoves when it got back to me. I should have folded, but since I was up at the moment (10 hands) and I was playing full stack, I called. MP had QQ, Button had AQ off, and BB had AQ off. Why did BB call when he had 2 shoves in front of him?? Bad player. Why did I flat it for $25 with JJ when I was the 4th call?? Cause I am a bad player too. (Well, was hoping for a flip a flip and a 1010 pp and the pot looked really sexy too :club: )Basically, until someones proves to you at the .25 NL level that they are competent, they probably are not. At these levels you can learn alot in 50 hands, if they stay there that long. Anyway, good discussion, but I think we are swaying away from the OP topic.
i mean i just assume LP until i run into a showdown that proves otherwise
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Opener is pretty loose aggressive (about 400 hands)Other player is nitty (only 50 hands or so), but turned out to be more tag after awhile.I don't mind getting it in against the opener, but with two players in, I took a more cautious approach on the turn. Thoughts?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comButton ($24.65)SB ($25.80)Hero (BB) ($51.35)UTG ($25)MP ($40.12)Preflop: Hero is BB with K :5c, K :tsUTG bets $0.75, MP calls $0.75, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, UTG calls $2.75, MP calls $2.75Flop: ($10.60) 2 :4h, 5 :club:, J :qh(3 players)Hero bets $5.75, UTG calls $5.75, MP calls $5.75Turn: ($27.85) 8 :jh(3 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $15.75 (All-In), MP calls $15.75, Hero foldsRiver: ($59.35) 7 :3h(2 players, 1 all-in)Total pot: $59.35 | Rake: $2
This is a snap call HU and prob a fold 3 ways w the action in front. (which I wish I could learn to do).
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