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Getting Away From Pocket Aces


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Here is how the hand went downPokerStars Game #6430959753: Tournament #32353808, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2006/09/26 - 20:20:04 (ET)Table '32353808 117' 9-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: STAMISLAR (4925 in chips) Seat 2: hankthedog (7225 in chips) Seat 3: pickpok (26326 in chips) Seat 4: aceturf (10560 in chips) Seat 5: muckyourlife (14333 in chips) Seat 6: DBL GUTTER (14872 in chips) Seat 7: mundos (36132 in chips) Seat 8: Coy6 (13849 in chips) Seat 9: bigbirdhawk (16610 in chips) STAMISLAR: posts the ante 25hankthedog: posts the ante 25pickpok: posts the ante 25aceturf: posts the ante 25muckyourlife: posts the ante 25DBL GUTTER: posts the ante 25mundos: posts the ante 25Coy6: posts the ante 25bigbirdhawk: posts the ante 25hankthedog: posts small blind 100pickpok: posts big blind 200*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to muckyourlife [Ad Ah]aceturf: folds muckyourlife: raises 600 to 800DBL GUTTER: folds mundos: folds Coy6: folds bigbirdhawk: calls 800aceturf is disconnected STAMISLAR: folds hankthedog: folds pickpok: folds *** FLOP *** [Kd 8d Th]muckyourlife: bets 13508 and is all-inbigbirdhawk: calls 13508*** TURN *** [Kd 8d Th] [2d]aceturf is connected *** RIVER *** [Kd 8d Th 2d] [Qs]*** SHOW DOWN ***muckyourlife: shows [Ad Ah] (a pair of Aces)bigbirdhawk: shows [8h 8c] (three of a kind, Eights)bigbirdhawk collected 29141 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 29141 | Rake 0 Board [Kd 8d Th 2d Qs]Seat 1: STAMISLAR (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 2: hankthedog (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 3: pickpok (big blind) folded before FlopSeat 4: aceturf folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 5: muckyourlife showed [Ad Ah] and lost with a pair of AcesSeat 6: DBL GUTTER folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 7: mundos folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 8: Coy6 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 9: bigbirdhawk showed [8h 8c] and won (29141) with three of a kind, EightsOk, when he called my raise, I thought to myself...SMALL PAIR??????If I check and he bets can I get away from it....I don't think so!So my thinking was put the pressure back on him...if he has it i am done because I don't know how to lay these cards down!If he doesn't have it... he won't draw for it.Is this right...or should I have listened to myself...but how?????

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Laying them down is one thing, but not open pushing needlessly is something else entirely.
Agreed. By open pushing you rob yourself of any information about his hand strength and thus any possibility of getting away from your hand.
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Yeah there's no need to push all your chips there. If he calls you're gone or just about 50/50 to survive at best. You can find out the information you need without ending your tournament.
Ok, but with the k.... an ak would push real hard.... flush draw.... straight draw.... small pair...they all push in this situationI bet 2000 he pushes all in... ????I check... with his hand... he pushes I become a calling station look like a donk (I am a donk...but I try not to look like it)
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I bet 2000 he pushes all in... ????
Fold.You started the hand with more than 14000 chips and the blinds at 100-200. You can get away and still be in great shape. You still have more than 11000. No need to risk your tourney on one pair after the flop at this point.If you had fewer chips...say 5k or less in this situation then maybe you could call.And by the way, he has more chips than you. He'd be a complete idiot to push on a flush draw at this point.
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bet 1/2 the pot on the flop to start. learn how to manage pot size, very crucial playing NL and PL, espescially OOP. oh and TSFIDTS
I'd bet a little more than half, maybe 70% with a possible flush draw. If you bet half he's getting the just odds he needs to call. Make his call be an error.
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Yea, the open push for 6x the pot was completly stupid. Betting 3/4ths the pot will get you the info you need, if he pushes you don't have to risk it on 1 pair with a nice stack.
This is what I was looking for..... and the others like it.I agree that the all in was stupid... and that is why i wondered what to do.So, let me get this right....bet more than half the pot....He pushes back... I lay it down and fight another fight... looking for good cards with good flops....Wont this let me be bluffed off most hands... its not like I was holding pocket 2s...by bigger stacks.This must be a hard thing to learn!!!!!!!
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Not like I just sat down.... he was pushing with ak aq...big pairs.... calling with small pairs... (at least when people challenged and i got to see his hole cards)So I thought 4s or 5s....tight players are easy to read betting patterns don't change much...I guess he knew I was a tight player too and in this case just called....middle pair goes either way....I didn't want him to draw out...catching the setBut given that the posts make sense...If I would have bet pot and he raised... that would have given me the information... based on other hands...but he does that with ak tooIf he just keeps calling my bets.... so if i see this right...bet the first time..he calls... check the next time and see if he bets....but he would do this with ak as well... and hope he doesn't put me all in before I am pot committedI agree totally though... I never had a way off the hand... but I wanted him to know that I had ak or better.... and you are saying betting the pot a good player knows that------------------------------side note: I have folded pocket aces/kings/queens before.... but the board was much different.... and at the river...it is the type of board I don't think that I could ever throw the aces away with this player. Well i might have put him on aj...maybe

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Not like I just sat down.... he was pushing with ak aq...big pairs.... calling with small pairs... (at least when people challenged and i got to see his hole cards)So I thought 4s or 5s....tight players are easy to read betting patterns don't change much...I guess he knew I was a tight player too and in this case just called....middle pair goes either way....I didn't want him to draw out...catching the setBut given that the posts make sense...If I would have bet pot and he raised... that would have given me the information... based on other hands...but he does that with ak tooIf he just keeps calling my bets.... so if i see this right...bet the first time..he calls... check the next time and see if he bets....but he would do this with ak as well... and hope he doesn't put me all in before I am pot committedI agree totally though... I never had a way off the hand... but I wanted him to know that I had ak or better.... and you are saying betting the pot a good player knows that------------------------------side note: I have folded pocket aces/kings/queens before.... but the board was much different.... and at the river...it is the type of board I don't think that I could ever throw the aces away with this player. Well i might have put him on aj...maybe
Read some poker books...alot of poker books.First stop trying to read a player exactly, especilay when they have only made call preflop, all you can do is put them on a range of hands, and with only a preflop call, that range is going to be very big. You can't look at a flop and judge what hand they have, becuase they haven't acted yet... Think about what your doing before you do it...Also if you knew he was a tight plyaer this was an even worse move. In most cases if someone calls a huge overbet such as this one they have you beat, if they folded they have a chance of folding teh better hand, but a bigger chance of folding a weak/marginal hand, maybe even a hand that would have called a smaller bet. So hopefully you see how this kind of bet is always a lose/lose situation.
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Ok, when he called my raise, I thought to myself...SMALL PAIR??????If I check and he bets can I get away from it....I don't think so!So my thinking was put the pressure back on him...if he has it i am done because I don't know how to lay these cards down!If he doesn't have it... he won't draw for it.Is this right...or should I have listened to myself...but how?????
First off, if you bet the pot, or 70% of pot, and he raises, which I am not even sure if he would, you still have to call, you can't fold. He can so likely be raising you with AK, KQ, a middle pair by not putting YOU on the K, or the flush draw. You're losing nearly everything on this flop, sorry.The way the flop came it was fairly draw heavy, if he were to be calling a raise with a hand like AJ or AQ he had a straight draw, if he had a hand like AK or KQ he had top pair. There also were diamonds for a flush draw, thus opening up a lot more possibilites for him to have some type of drawing hand. I like the push only because he can only call and win with a set there. Of course people will say, why push, what is going to call you? You're only getting called here if you are beat. But plenty of people will call of all of their chips on a flush draw or just tptk. Putting you in a good position to double up. And if he/she flopped a set on that board and you didn't open push you're probably going to lose everything anyway. And if not everything, you will lose a large chunk on that hand. If he floped a hand with AK or KQ then you would have him/her in such bad shape, and for him to call off his chips with tptk would put you in great position to double up. You just got unlucky. I think if you "value" bet the flop (of course not knowing he flopped a set, putting him on a K) you will probably get raised, and then what do you do? What if you value bet and he/she just calls, you would probably have to fire out another bullet on the turn, so this really was a near lose/lose situation for you. And even if you possibly could get away from losing everything on that flop, you are losing nearly half or more to find out that you're beat. It is hard to get away from, tough beat. You just got really unlucky, sorry man. Better luck next time really.
you dont get away from the hand with that board...period.
See, that is exactly what I was saying, just in a little longer speach. But yes, you're right, you can't.
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Wow Vyszion big statementsI guess this was a bad idea.... apparently I look as though I am the biggest idiot that ever played cards....I get it... I have a Degree in Mathematics I understand the math behind the game more than I am given creditGiven the three cards....and the person playing....in a previous hand he called until he hit his set on the river. The 10 or so hands I saw his hole cards....never did he have suited cards (once aq was suited but i think he played them for aq).Dan Harrington raises....does everyone not believe he has a strong hand.DN calls...who knows...lolMy point is everyone knows Dan's betting patterns. You act accordingly...if he pushes in hard...you believe he has a monster. (not that I have played against him...lol). DN pushes not exactly sure.....I was playing a Dan Harrington type.He was not table leader because he called with j3 suited.As far as poker books to read. I don't need them. These are the opinions of people that have played and are relating thier experiences. They might help those that are inferior to the basic understanding of mathematics; but for me...I have read a few and will read DN's when it comes out.... but all these books do is explain the math to people that are too dumb to understand the pure mathematics behind poker.Doyle has many experiences and is a great poker player. But his book puts the math in layman's terms and that is all. It does not teach you to read an individual...no two people are alike. He explains sterotypes but can never really teach someone to read people. See Doyle possesses the qualities that he writes about...but the common man...me included.... can not aspire to that level without the dedication that doyle, tiger, michael, have given to thier field of competition.Back to the hand.... not always lose lose.... if you get a player off of a draw they would otherwise reach for...and on pokerstars get... it was a win in my book.In this case...he hit his hand... and I lose all i was looking for was betting strategy...you gave some crappy answer that makes no sense to me because i am smarter than you give me credit for.I am a donk...ok...i admit that.....now admit your an idiot

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First off, if you bet the pot, or 70% of pot, and he raises, which I am not even sure if he would, you still have to call, you can't fold. He can so likely be raising you with AK, KQ, a middle pair by not putting YOU on the K, or the flush draw. You're losing nearly everything on this flop, sorry.The way the flop came it was fairly draw heavy, if he were to be calling a raise with a hand like AJ or AQ he had a straight draw, if he had a hand like AK or KQ he had top pair. There also were diamonds for a flush draw, thus opening up a lot more possibilites for him to have some type of drawing hand. I like the push only because he can only call and win with a set there. Of course people will say, why push, what is going to call you? You're only getting called here if you are beat. But plenty of people will call of all of their chips on a flush draw or just tptk. Putting you in a good position to double up. And if he/she flopped a set on that board and you didn't open push you're probably going to lose everything anyway. And if not everything, you will lose a large chunk on that hand. If he floped a hand with AK or KQ then you would have him/her in such bad shape, and for him to call off his chips with tptk would put you in great position to double up. You just got unlucky. I think if you "value" bet the flop (of course not knowing he flopped a set, putting him on a K) you will probably get raised, and then what do you do? What if you value bet and he/she just calls, you would probably have to fire out another bullet on the turn, so this really was a near lose/lose situation for you. And even if you possibly could get away from losing everything on that flop, you are losing nearly half or more to find out that you're beat. It is hard to get away from, tough beat. You just got really unlucky, sorry man. Better luck next time really.See, that is exactly what I was saying, just in a little longer speach. But yes, you're right, you can't.
Ok.....so maybe....i am not alone thinking I was going broke no matter what given the outcome of the cards
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Ok.....so maybe....i am not alone thinking I was going broke no matter what given the outcome of the cards
I'm not saying that you will go broke every time, it because it honestly depends on how agressive the Villian decides to play the hand. If he just calls the flop and raises the turn it might play out differently, but if he puts a raise in on the flop it will be very hard to get away. And after you call the raise on the flop, you check the turn and he then bets nearly the pot, it would be hard to lay it down still. So if you don't go bust you are pretty much losing a huge chunk of your stack on this hand. Just a tough break really, because there are FAR too many hands that you have beat that would be putting in raises, like I said above, AK, KQ, QQ, JJ, flush draw, or bluff.
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I'm not saying that you will go broke every time, it because it honestly depends on how agressive the Villian decides to play the hand. If he just calls the flop and raises the turn it might play out differently, but if he puts a raise in on the flop it will be very hard to get away. And after you call the raise on the flop, you check the turn and he then bets nearly the pot, it would be hard to lay it down still. So if you don't go bust you are pretty much losing a huge chunk of your stack on this hand. Just a tough break really, because there are FAR too many hands that you have beat that would be putting in raises, like I said above, AK, KQ, QQ, JJ, flush draw, or bluff.
I said going broke because we know my opponents hole cards.... and semi aggressive so I believe I would haveFew intelligent people on here....lol.... have to gaurd against the draw and bluff... I did that....got beat...its a game
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I said going broke because we know my opponents hole cards.... and semi aggressive so I believe I would haveFew intelligent people on here....lol.... have to gaurd against the draw and bluff... I did that....got beat...its a game
Yes sir, there is no easy way to play that hand, considering he floped a set. And the fact that a King flopped. Had the flop not brought a K, say either a 2-6, the hand would have been so much easier to play, since it is eliminating all types of top pair top kicker hands and/or broadway straight draws. The King killed your hand because it forces you to play more aggr. and the King would also likely force the Villian to play more aggr. because he would believe to put you on AK or KQ and possibly milk you for more chips with raises.
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Yes sir, there is no easy way to play that hand, considering he floped a set. And the fact that a King flopped. Had the flop not brought a K, say either a 2-6, the hand would have been so much easier to play, since it is eliminating all types of top pair top kicker hands and/or broadway straight draws. The King killed your hand because it forces you to play more aggr. and the King would also likely force the Villian to play more aggr. because he would believe to put you on AK or KQ and possibly milk you for more chips with raises.
I feel better about my play now.... that is what i wanted to hear... I just wanted to know i am not aloneI honestly don't care who you are....with that flop...most would do what i did.... go brokeIf not push the all in before opponent acts...if opponent bets...all in would soon follow....if opponent is calling down etc .... I was going broke with that hand and that person.... in that tourney
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I feel better about my play now.... that is what i wanted to hear... I just wanted to know i am not aloneI honestly don't care who you are....with that flop...most would do what i did.... go brokeIf not push the all in before opponent acts...if opponent bets...all in would soon follow....if opponent is calling down etc .... I was going broke with that hand and that person.... in that tourney
Exactly.
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This is what I was looking for..... and the others like it.I agree that the all in was stupid... and that is why i wondered what to do.So, let me get this right....bet more than half the pot....He pushes back... I lay it down and fight another fight... looking for good cards with good flops....Wont this let me be bluffed off most hands... its not like I was holding pocket 2s...by bigger stacks.This must be a hard thing to learn!!!!!!!
If you thought he had 4 or 5s why would you go all in? You aren't going to get called, if you really thought he had 4 or 5s you'd want to check or bet small hoping that he'd take that as weakness and try to push you off your hand.Your bet was extremely fishlike, over betting the pot by a factor of 6 is just nuts, you can't get called unless you are losing. If you bet and get raised, then decide to call and you are beat thats one thing, but to just go all in like that is possibly the worst possible play you could make in poker.
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