getting the right price? (nl)

[Blink20 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) converterCO ($194.50)Button ($29)SB ($15.50)BB ($60.95)UTG ($42.70)UTG+1 ($113.55)MP1 ($44.75)MP2 ($36)Hero ($110.75)Preflop: Hero is MP3 with [Qh], [Ah]. 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: ($6) [8s], [2h], [4h] (6 players)SB bets $1, Hero folds.Final Pot: $143.55This was probably mostly played horrible preflop, where I didn't raise, which I do 98.65% of the time. I make little mistakes preflop playing five tables and typing out why I think going all in with kings instead of a big raise is bad. ;-)Anyway, just looking at the flop play, my main quesiton is, can I call this with teh given price.It was 87.55 to win 143.55 which is 1.64-1If I knew my overs and flush draw was live, that's a good enough price.With just the flush, I need 1.85-1 with two cards, but if he has a set, its worse because he can catch a boat.I decided to fold because I didn't like my overs outs, and wasn't quite getting enough on flush outs.Bad fold?Edit: No read on the villian, but I hadn't seen any craazy maniacal plays/players at any of my tables so far today.

[lboarts 0]

Tough laydown, but a good one, IMO. It showed good discipline.

[zimmer4141 0]

Yeah, it's a good fold on the flop. Not getting quite the odds you need, and your overs are probably not live. I would just call the $4 on the flop, rather than trying to isolate/take it down right there.

[Blink20 0]

Yeah, it's a good fold on the flop. Not getting quite the odds you need, and your overs are probably not live. I would just call the $4 on the flop, rather than trying to isolate/take it down right there.

That is an option, but I play my big hands strong in position. I can almost treat this draw like a made hand and put the pressure on my opponents. And a lot of times they will have a hand they can't call that bet with and have to lay it down. I only made about a pot sized raise on the flop, having the best position, I don't like just calling.The action is going to slow down too much when the heart does hit. I want them to pay when I am "ahead" now which I am most of the time.Just like these two hands..PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) converterUTG ($81.50)UTG+1 ($51)MP1 ($107.45)MP2 ($42.45)MP3 ($37.50)CO ($76.05)Button ($76.25)SB ($99)Hero ($102.75)Preflop: Hero is BB with [9d], [8d]. 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.Flop: ($4) [Jd], [3d], [Ts] (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets $4, UTG+1 calls $4, MP2 folds, SB folds.Turn: ($12) [Ac] (2 players)Hero bets $12, UTG+1 folds.Final Pot: $24PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) converterBB ($184.75)UTG ($17.65)UTG+1 ($20.30)MP1 ($36.80)MP2 ($95.50)CO ($49.25)Button ($37.50)Hero ($105)Preflop: Hero is SB with [Tc], [6c]. 2 folds, Button calls $1, Hero completes, BB checks.Flop: ($4) [4c], [6s], [Jc] (4 players)Hero bets $3, Button folds.Final Pot: $30I post these two examples b/c they just happened, but I'm sure you get the drift. Big draws like that are similar to big made hands and I prefer playing them strong.

[Smasharoo 0]

Why the pre-flop limp with AQs with that overlay?

[Blink20 0]

Why the pre-flop limp with AQs with that overlay?

I said in my op, it was a mistake.Which I make quite often because I like to do many things while playing five tables :-)And this is no joke, I was responding to your post about telling him to just move in preflop with kings, so I was just thinking of another way to debate you on that.The preflop limp was horrid.

[Smasharoo 0]

Making your decision did you factor in that a lot of people at this limit will push with any flush draw?I think this a lot closer than it might seem.

[Blink20 0]

Making your decision did you factor in that a lot of people at this limit will push with any flush draw?I think this a lot closer than it might seem.

I didn't factor that in.But people aren't crazy overaggressive at these tables.I would be surprised if the bb didn't have much. I haven't seen anybody get too out of line today, and usually during the day on stars, the tables are more passive. Today seems like most people are playing semi-loose/passive.I really don't see someone making that play with less than two pair or a set, however, you could be right about them doing it with a flush draw. That's the only exception I would be way ahead on, imo.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I could see a flush draw with top pair pulling that move. Smells more like a set though.

[allinbluff35 0]

call the flop bet since you didn't raise preflop you really don't have any clue what villains are holding, and fold to the push. Another thing, how don't you ever have a read on any players?

[looshle 6]

it looks like a set to me, calling 2 raises cold, then movingback in over the top. I'd probably end up folding here because more often than not I'm gonna need a heart that doesn't pair the board. IT's a tough laydown but I would probably make it more often than not.

[brian67 0]

Probably a set of 2's or 4's. Could have been a flush draw too, but i think you would probably have to see him play pretty wreckless before that to make this call. Also just as likely as a set is an overpair like 9 9 or 10 10. Just my thoughts. Also with so little in the pot, and the best draw why did you raise the flop so much? I would let the hand develope and keep plenty of people in it to pay me off. The raise to $20 would isolate, and make your odds worse to play. with 4 players in the hand, you have the best drawing hand, not necessarily the be best hand, and heads up the flush draw really loses its allure. Actually i take back what i said about seeing the guy play wreckless, I would still fold because then i would have to think he has at least a pair. I would never play a draw in this way for the very reason you just learned the hard way. You have to fold after getting so outplayed.

[justin 0]

jesus you played that so bad

[Guest]

Looks like a set to me, but as mentioned earlier a little history on the raisergoes a long way he could have AA thinking that with everyone limping in he has to take it down now before the flush hits.

[Guest]

Well with no raise at all pre-flop i will rule out AA, he may have 2 pair or an open ended ST8 draw. the 2 pair still kill your overcards probaly a good laydown.

[brian67 0]

Heads up you don't really want to see anything other than a bluff or a lower flush draw. The hand was so misplayed already that you have to muck it. There isn't a whole lot that you are actually beating there.

[Blink20 0]

Another thing, how don't you ever have a read on any players?

I just don't pay that much attention :-) Its sickly easy to just sit at five of these tables and tear them apart without paying attention and instead watch movies and surf the internet and posting the hands I misplay so you guys can flame me.Seriously though, I do watch my tables and get a feel for who's acting really out of line, who's being extremely tight, and since I play almost every day, I know most of the players tendencies. I just don't play on weekends much, so I didn't know this player at all.To the responses saying how horrible this was played, really the only really horrible part of this play was preflop. Not raising, as I addressed in my op, was a big mistake, it was also accidental. I don't always make the right clicks, and really I don't care that much. As I said, I'm raising this everytime if I'm paying attention.As far as the flop play, it is no where close to horrible to put in a good sized raise on the flop. I put in a pot sized raise, in position with a huge hand. I just happened to be behind a better hand this time. I already discussed this too, that's how I play my big draws, like big made hands. Two overs and nut flush in position, there's really no reason not to push, even if I didn't raise preflop. Most of the time, the two original betters won't have enough to play back. They HAVE to pick up a hand to play back at that raise.

I would never play a draw in this way for the very reason you just learned the hard way. You have to fold after getting so outplayed.

This is where the bulk of my money comes from, playing strong draws like this. The agressor normally takes down the pot. I gave two examples on the spot where I played big draws like that, and those two I just put b/c those just happened. I could put a ton of hands. Most of the time they work.This isn't even close to learning the hard way. There's several ways and strategies you can play no limit. That's fine if you want to sit back and wait to hit your hand. But I know from experience two overs and a flush in position is most likely the best hand at the time.My line with all the responses:Raise preflop (ofcourse)Raise/fold the flop

[CobaltBlue 662]

Blink, the more I think about the flop...the more I think you just need to call the $4 and hope SB doesn't go crazy with his pair or baby flush draw. If there's just one bet in front, I don't mind the raise here at all. That's how I'd play it all day long. The fact that there's a bet (albeit a min-bet), a raise, and a call is a little scary though.

[Blink20 0]

Blink, the more I think about the flop...the more I think you just need to call the $4 and hope SB doesn't go crazy with his pair or baby flush draw.  If there's just one bet in front, I don't mind the raise here at all. That's how I'd play it all day long. The fact that there's a bet (albeit a min-bet), a raise, and a call is a little scary though.

My whole strategy on hands like this, and bets like those. Most of the time thats just scared money. That's a scared little raise on a weak pair. Or its a weak call. Most of the time they don't have enough to play back at me.And if they do pick up enough of something, many times they'll just call and I'm fine with that with the number of outs I have and the position I am in.I really haven't come up with one reason why just calling is best, and I know several why raising is better. I am open minded though, if someone really convinced me, I would change my postion, I just don't see that happening in this hand :-)

[brian67 0]

My whole strategy on hands like this, and bets like those. Most of the time thats just scared money. That's a scared little raise on a weak pair. Or its a weak call. Most of the time they don't have enough to play back at me.And if they do pick up enough of something, many times they'll just call and I'm fine with that with the number of outs I have and the position I am in.I really haven't come up with one reason why just calling is best, and I know several why raising is better. I am open minded though, if someone really convinced me, I would change my postion, I just don't see that happening in this hand Smile

The push push push style can work great for you in general, but here are my thoughts on this hand. I would want to win the largest i can with the least amount of real risk. I would therefore want to keep this pot multiway, more people put chips into the pot, and they don't present any more real risk. If your nut flush draw fills and the board does not pair then you are guaranteed of a much larger pot with the best odds on your money. You risked much less to win the same amount if not more. Figure it in this way as well, say you were last to act in that same situation and the raise were still $112 to you with all four players in the hand. You would call that in a heartbeat right? I hope so, because the odds on your money would be great. See the difference?

[CobaltBlue 662]

Blink, min-bet doesn't really scare me. A re-raise of the min-bet starts to scare me a little. The flat call of that re-raise often screams strength to me. (The guy doesn't care that he's not closing the betting.)If the first guy had min-bet and the next two called, raise it on up. If the first guy had checked, the second guy had bet, and the third guy had called, raise it on up. If it had been checked, bet it.The combination of factors that played out in this hand (bet + raise + call + not closing the betting) makes me just call here.

[Rocketwadster 0]

You screwed this up big time IMO, every single time you acted. By putting in the $20 raise, you had to know ahead of time what you next course of action was going to be, depending on what you opponent(s) did. Sure, you may have been up against a set or two pair (at the minimum), but you had lots of outs, and the math says it was closer than it may seem. If you are going to put $20 in, I think you have to be willing to put it all in if they come over the top of you. I would have just called the small raise and seen the next card... 8)

[mk 11]

I really haven't come up with one reason why just calling is best, and I know several why raising is better. I am open minded though, if someone really convinced me, I would change my postion, I just don't see that happening in this hand :-)

You're semi-bluffing into a multi-way pot, which is the problem. The semi-bluff is a powerful tool, but you have to remember the reason it has value is due to fold equity, which is dramatically lowered for each opponent involved in the pot. When you're drawing to the nuts in a multi-way pot, your hand HATES a raise. UTG+1 made a huge mistake in allowing you to draw to the nuts cheaply when he obviously had a strong hand. Instead of making him pay for the mistake, you gave him the pot.

[Blink20 0]

Ok.You guys did a great job in the combinations of all those posts. I had to try and rationalize my move and I was convinced, but now I see the many reasons just calling was best. The many reasons.Thanks for the input. I do see why this situation is different then most of the times I'm pushing back with a big draw. Finding these little differences in scenarios is what creates more profit for a player, thanks for pointing it out guys :-)