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can you fold kings before the flop?


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I know it's a very rare play but if the stacks are deep enough can you fold kings before the flop? I know DN said he'd never done it and Harrington thought it was stupid and certainly it's fairly impossible in a tournament with the blinds as high as they are. But if you've got enough chips... TJ Cloutier says that on the first level at the WSOP two kings isn't a big enough hand to go broke with before the flop. Here's the hand from tonight that got me:$1/$2 No-Limit at the MGM-Grand, playing 8-handed.Hero is UTG+1 with $240Villain is CO with $260 (and the only player with more than $140)I'd been there for about five hours and had an up and down run (hand gets cracked, double up, hand gets cracked, double up, hand gets cracked, double up) but recently got winner for $120 on the night. Every hand I showed was a top starting hand and the villain had been playing for about 90 minutes and seemed a fairly solid player, mostly picking on the people that couldn't fold A7.Preflop:Hero is dealt K :club: K :D.UTG Limps for $2.Hero raises to $10.3 Folds.Villain raises to $30 (20 more).3 Folds.Hero raises to $110 (80 more).Villain raises to $260 (all-in).Hero calls off $130 (all-in).Villain shows A :D A :D (at least my suits were live)I don't crack aces and a good night gets shipped to the other side of the table. I think I went wrong on with my second raise. I overbet the pot and was pretty well committed to it at that point. When he moved in I was getting 3-1 on the call and had to be right almost 100% of the time since I'm only a 4-1 dog. If I'd only raised another $50 or $60 then that 4th raise would have left me stammering but I probably could have saved my last $150. I knew he had a good hand (AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK and maybe TT or AQ) when he re-raised and that 4th raise, 99.99% pure aces.

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I wouldnt make it a habit either. If you play with the guy day in and day out then mabe. But a guy I ahve never met I am in all day. I have seen too many people make the same play with jj and QQ. I figure if I win more than 50% of these I will be fine.

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I've never folded KK pf. There are situations where you could argue it but I dont think that this is one of them. With your stack size after the reraise you are just not getting away from them.

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Phil Gordon's book say that the 4th raise means aces. His belief is that the only way a person will make a 4th raise is if they have pocket aces, everyone else will stop at three. Plus he limped utg until you showed strength. Still a tough laydown that I don't think I am good enough to make.

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Phil Gordon's book say that the 4th raise means aces. His belief is that the only way a person will make a 4th raise is if they have pocket aces, everyone else will stop at three. Plus he limped utg until you showed strength. Still a tough laydown that I don't think I am good enough to make.

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Phil Gordon's book say that the 4th raise means aces. His belief is that the only way a person will make a 4th raise is if they have pocket aces, everyone else will stop at three. Plus he limped utg until you showed strength. Still a tough laydown that I don't think I am good enough to make.

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Hey guys... Phil Gordon's book say that the 4th raise means aces.=)that said, before I took my head out of my ass and learned a thing or 2 about poker I would have done this with qq jj or even like AK suited.

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I folded them once, and I was right - up against Aces. I thought about doing it 2 other times, but I didn't have enough evidence to do it, so I called, and both of those times it was the Aces too. I wouldn't make a habit of it, but once in a blue moon, if all the signs point to Aces, it might be wise to save yourself the money. Once in a BLUE MOON.

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In a cash game I would lay down KK after he went all in. Even if I had put in a much as you already did (because, like you said you still would have had $150) My experience in cash games is that the 4th reraise before the flop is AA 99.99% of the time. If you read Phil Gordon's book he says the same thing and he even tells a story about how he laid down KK in the final stages of a tourney against Phil Hellmuth (Hellmuth had AA).I personally don't think I would ever lay down KK in a tourney especially in the early stages but in a cash game especially in 1/2 nlh (which i play a lot) it easy to tell when someone has AA before flop when so much raising has taken place.

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I'm not saying I should fold on the end, my mistake was putting in the oversized 3rd raise ($80 more into a $65 pot). It was really dumb, it lets him fold jacks, queens or AK when I want a call and then against aces I'm committed and have to put in the rest of my chips. When he moved in I actually said, "Well, I think I just walked right into the cooler." and then put in the rest of my chips. I knew he had to have aces or kings but I was getting big odds and hoping I was wrong.Folding Kings is a hard thing to do, no doubt. If you have less than 50BB it's impossible. Less than 100BB it's almost impossible. But when stacks are deeper than that (which they were in my case) you just have to know who you're playing against. In TJ Cloutiers book, I've come to disagree with a lot of his advice but the one thing he's absolutely right about is that if you're a good player and you stare down your man, your instincts are going to be right more often than a mathematical analysis of the situation.BTW: I did a little mathematical analysis anyway. If you've got two kings and think you're opponent has to have either aces or kings then you have a 22.6% chance of winning the hand. So you'd need 3.4:1 or better to make the call. I was getting 2.7:1 and probably still should have folded. If I'd just raised 60 (instead of 80) more I would have still been getting 2.3:1 and hopefully would have dropped. More odds vs hand ranges.Hand range: Win %AA, KK - 22.6%AA, KK, QQ - 50%AA, KK, AKs - 38.3%AA, KK, AK - 46.8%AA, KK, AKs, QQ - 52.11%AA, KK, AK, QQ - 55.8%AA, KK, AK, QQ, JJ - 62.3%So even against a fairly loose 4th raise you're only 62% which you have to take but I don't see a lot of good players won't go in for the 4th raise with less than AA or KK.

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I folded them once, and I was right - up against Aces. I thought about doing it 2 other times, but I didn't have enough evidence to do it, so I called, and both of those times it was the Aces too. I wouldn't make a habit of it, but once in a blue moon, if all the signs point to Aces, it might be wise to save yourself the money. Once in a BLUE MOON.
I have this exact same experience. Done it correctly once, thought I should do it a couple of other times but didn't, and ended up against AA. Same advice from me: Don't make it a habit, or even something you consider often. But if you're up a player who you just know isn't putting all their money in without AA or KK, and you hold KK....its time to pause at least :)Mark
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I thought I walked into this last night at a 1/2 table. Raised to $8 UTG at 7-handed table. Button min-raised. BB called. I re-raised around the pot. Button called. BB called. Flop came low. BB checked. I bet around 3/4 of the pot. Button moved in. BB folded. So much money in the pot that I had to call, and resignedly thought, "Show me aces." He flipped over queens, and I took down a monster. Don't know what he was thinking.

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Maybe.If you're exceptionally deep stacked, and so is the villain, maybe. And only then if you have an incredible read, or, he happens to turn his hand face up.Kings run into aces from time to time, I don't make it a habit to fold Kings preflop.
Remember DN did the same thing a few months back in a tourney thinking he had some guy read for aces, and the guy turns up QQ instead after DN folds? Kings run into aces once every 24 times you hold them approx. Play them for the nuts, and that 24th time when you actually run into aces... well, you at least have a 1 in 5 chance of sucking out trips.
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I had a buddy who just loved pushing preflop with AA and KK. Those were the only hands he'd do it with. In 3 years, he pushed with them 95% of the time, and "weirdo pushed" with exactly 0 other hands.Somebody mucked a king face up accidentally, and I had KK. I raised, and he instapushed. So I folded. I felt horrible about it after.I did it one other time, but it was a really weird situation in a tournament.wang

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Kings run into aces once every 24 times you hold them approx.
For some reason I had it in my brain it was about 1 in 40 times. Can someone confirm/deny?Mark
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Kings run into aces once every 24 times you hold them approx.
For some reason I had it in my brain it was about 1 in 40 times. Can someone confirm/deny?Mark
1 in 24 is correct
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I agree with you.You did overbet and he pushed. That to me is a move someone does only with Aces, although more than a few jackasses play 1/2 nl in a casino.But, you said he seemed OK. I might've folded here.
NO WAY can you fold KK for 130 more here. There is about 370 in the pot it costs you 130 to call. If he has AK, QQ, JJ 1010 less than half the time here that means positive EV for you. I understand making good reads and when I am playing well I often call other peoples cards to a tee. But just as often as I think someone might have flopped a set of fours when the board reads A54 they actually flopped a set of fives. The point being that when you are getting almost 3 to 1 on your money with the second best hand in the game you don'f fold it because you aren't going to be dead right 100% of the time. If he raised you 1000 more than you could consider folding because now you aren't even getting a good price on your hand but for 130 more you have to have the courage to stick it in the pot. Its called a cooler and not even Phil Hellmuth could avoid that one.
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Plus he limped utg until you showed strength. Still a tough laydown that I don't think I am good enough to make.
Villain isn't the UTG limper.
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Maybe.If you're exceptionally deep stacked, and so is the villain, maybe. And only then if you have an incredible read, or, he happens to turn his hand face up.Kings run into aces from time to time, I don't make it a habit to fold Kings preflop.
Remember DN did the same thing a few months back in a tourney thinking he had some guy read for aces, and the guy turns up QQ instead after DN folds? Kings run into aces once every 24 times you hold them approx. Play them for the nuts, and that 24th time when you actually run into aces... well, you at least have a 1 in 5 chance of sucking out trips.
Well said joe,
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You can construe a situation where you should lay down kings (it's a tournament, blah blah blah) but in a cash game...no. Just get used to eating it when you run into aces and plan on reloading. If you can't reload, you're playing too high.Now, postflop, this changes. This is one of the reasons I don't like pushing preflop.

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