akishore's no-limit cash game situation #2, wwyd?

[akishore 0]

four-handed game right now, blinds are at $0.50 and $1.going clockwise (seat 2 is to the left of seat 1, etc.):seat 1: me, about $80.seat 2: chief, somewhere between $200-$400, who knows.seat 3: irrelevant in this handseat 4: girl, somewhere around $150?this is near the tail end of a 9-hour session. we've been up all night playing poker, it's around 7am or 8am, so while i was trying my hardest to remain focused, i could feel myself getting sluggish and making some bad moves from time to time.well, that's not really relevant, but oh well.anyway, here are the reads:seat 2: he was the guy in my situation #1 post (QQ vs TT on KT9 all hearts flop). he is normally tight/aggressive, but tonight, he's been quite loose/aggressive. he's been raising many hands pre-flop and buying many pots and fearlessly bluffing through the river.seat 4: scared money describes her perfectly. at the same time, so does calling station. even four-handed, when she wasn't a blind, she was playing 1 hand out of every 40 hands. whenever she raised, it was almost always a big ace, a big king, or a big pair. her post-flop play was quite predictable... check/called with ace-high, bet with a pair or better. she was very passive post-flop, but rarely folded post-flop unless it was hugely evident that she was beat. she also lacked the ability to differentiate between the big hands... KT was as good as AQ to her. she also lacked knowledge about betting... her raises were almost always overbets, and her value bets were almost always a fraction of the pot. at the same time, her small bets meant weakness while bigger bets meant strength. i hadn't seen her checkraise once the entire night, but i had seen her check-call with trips, somewhat slowplaying.here's the situation:i post a SB of 50c. seat 2 posts a BB of $1. UTG (seat 3) folds, button (seat 4, girl) raises to $7. i wake up to A J , and i know i want to play it.however, i have adopted a policy of playing marginally strong hands (TT/99/88, AK/AQ/AJ, etc.) against her raises... simply call pre-flop since it's so easy to outplay her and to read her post-flop. why? because i will never push her off a hand (calling station once she enters a pot) and i don't want to get too much money in the pot without knowing where i am against her. $7 was basically her standard raise, so i didn't have any information other than she had some kind of big hand.so i called, as did the BB, surprisingly (since he is also an observant player and knows with complete certainty that she holds a big hand, as do i). pre-flop pot: $21.flop comes K T 7 . i have a nut flush draw, a gutshot nut straight draw, and an overcard. i think this is ideal, but i want to see where i am against the girl. if she checks, she has nothing, and i can then go for a nice value bet with my ace-high on the turn, even unimproved, because i am most likely good. so i check.now, this threw me off. seat 2, loose/aggressive player, bet $12. the girl immediately called, and i had no idea where i was. why was seat 2 betting into the girl? and the girl calling probably meant she had nothing, so i was probably good against her, but i had no idea where i was against seat 2. did he flop a set or top two or TPTK or something, and was value betting into her, knowing she was a calling station?the pot is $45 at this point. what's your move?1. call $12.2. fold.3. raise some amount (after a call, i will have about $60 left).aseem

[KDawgCometh 2]

This is a great place to CR this(hmm runon right there, h well). You have a multitude of outs and draws so CRing it up to $30 is good value IMO. The girl might even call a push, but seat 2 should recognize extreme strength in you putting in half of your stack here. Pushing might be smart too as you are committimg yourself to the pot by doing the amount I recomended, so yeah Push that puppy in

[Suited_Up 2]

I think I would go ahead and just smooth call this hand.You have plenty of outs. Probably 12 to the winning hand? The implied odds are definitely in your favor here, and I hate making the c/r on a draw from first position. Because if you miss, you're almost forced to bet on the turn, and could get re-raised.. then you're in trouble.So I think the best play is to take the odds, make the call and hope for a club or the Q. If you do hit one on the turn, check it again, hope for seat 2 to bet at it again, and hopefully you'll get another overcall from the girl and can make a raise they might call. If you miss, then hopefully you still have the odds to see the river.

[Suited_Up 2]

This is a great place to CR this(hmm runon right there, h well). You have a multitude of outs and draws so CRing it up to $30 is good value IMO. The girl might even call a push, but seat 2 should recognize extreme strength in you putting in half of your stack here. Pushing might be smart too as you are committimg yourself to the pot by doing the amount I recomended, so yeah Push that puppy in

I am not so sure about the C/R, almost sheerly on position here, especially without a made hand. I think if you are going to do it, you almost have to push and hope to take the pot down right there. Because what happens if you miss your draw on the turn? Do you fire again? I hate those situations.

[Emptyeye 0]

I think a smooth-call is good here as well. You're getting roughly 4-to-1 on your call, you certainly hit one of your draws more times than 1 in 5, and the implied odds of doubling or possibly even tripling up here are there. I don't like the check-raise; as mentioned, if your reraise gets called (And given your read of Girl, it probably will), and you miss the turn, you're in a tough spot.

[Chief 0]

Nice tricky-situation posts Aseem. Would you have called had you known I had 2 of your gutshot outs

[Awful 0]

I think I'd be a wuss and flat call. 45 to 12 is damn nice odds on a 12 out nut draw plus an overcard.Gutshot outs plus flush outs are all to the nuts, likely undivided as well (I doubt another AJ is in w/o the flush chance). Calling station shouldn't be shut out so you have better implied odds and can take her along for the ride.No need to get fancy, this feels pretty straightforwards; make the plain value play; take your good odds and let the girl hang around to pay off your hand when it hits. How you play the (usually TAG but now) LAG with the calling station behind him when you hit is the important part, IMHO. Right now, you have odds to chase and can only enhance them by keeping the pot multiway and closing the action on this round.While the bettor is more capable of making a laydown and the one you don't want in the hand, also remember that he's a usually good player betting into a protected pot. He can have something marginal, yes, but he has something you need to draw to beat.

[akishore 0]

interesting replies. thanks for the responses everyone.i won't post my actions or the results just yet, i still want to see a few more responses.aseem

[pockets 0]

I would definitely call, hoping to hit the flush or the straight. The flat call the girl made is real scary to me, and I would have to think that hitting an ace would be no good here if she has a big hand.

[Vade 0]

HmmLAG's got something, the question is what...He bet about 1/2 the pot which is screaming "please call me I'm weak"Her call seems normal, yea I like calling as wellYou have a nut draw, but you probably have to ditch it to a decent sized turn betIf the turn bet is 1/2 the pot or more, fold to a blank on the turnRaising is no good, someone's got somethingAnd don't forget your girl could easily have AQ, which is also a better hand then you at this pointCalling stations don't raise preflop with nothingShe's got AQ, QQ (doubtful) 99, 88 etcSomething that would make a calling station not lead out to an overcardThese players are both calling your raise, unless you push all in...which would be insane

[DTrain 0]

Her call on the flop doesn't really mean anything. What I would do is raise to find out where I am against the aggressive player. If you just call this bet here you don't have any information that can help you on the turn. If both players call proceed with caution, but you have a lot of outs.

[Rocketwadster 0]

In my opinion, calling this bet acheives nothing except to commit you to the pot on the turn, regardless of what comes out. Saying that, my best play would be to go all-in here, and see what happens. Folding is also an option, better than calling in my opinion, as you can't lose what you don't put in. So, I would go all-in, fold, or call (and then go all-in on the turn), in that order. 8)

[Suited_Up 2]

In my opinion, calling this bet acheives nothing except to commit you to the pot on the turn, regardless of what comes out. Saying that, my best play would be to go all-in here, and see what happens. Folding is also an option, better than calling in my opinion, as you can't lose what you don't put in. So, I would go all-in, fold, or call (and then go all-in on the turn), in that order. 8)

Great, so you narrowed it down to ALL the options. Very good.

[Rocketwadster 0]

In my opinion, calling this bet acheives nothing except to commit you to the pot on the turn, regardless of what comes out. Saying that, my best play would be to go all-in here, and see what happens. Folding is also an option, better than calling in my opinion, as you can't lose what you don't put in. So, I would go all-in, fold, or call (and then go all-in on the turn), in that order. 8)

Great, so you narrowed it down to ALL the options. Very good.

Not at all, I told you what I think would be the best play, what I think would be an acceptable play, and what would be an okay play. They wanted opinions, I gave my opinion, ranking what I think are the best options.

[Scott31 0]

I really don't think this is a toughy. Call and be willing to call mid-level or small bets on the turn and fold to a big turn bet. At this point, the girl is basically dead money in there as she's probably weak with that call and considering your reads. Push all in? Those guys who said this are nuts. Do you really like getting your money in on the worst hand? I sure as heck don't. Even if every gutshot card is good, you're still a little behind to ANY pair. Realistically, your Queen outs are probably not all there and your Ace sure as s hit aren't clean. I'd almost play this one like a naked flush draw. Check Raising- Not a bad option, but since you're out of position, it's not gonna buy you a free card or anything, so use the flat call option and stop overthinking this one. If you were in late position, I think there'd be some more options on the flop, but here it's pretty clearly a call situation for me. I'd like to see what the turn card was and how aseem played this one on 4th street. The flop is pretty easy, but if you miss on the turn, then this becomes an interesting situation. Right now, it's an easy call.

[rog 0]

I'd call. It's not too much to pay to see another card with the draw you're on, but any raise large enough to tell you where you're at would pretty much pot-commit you. Folding is out of the question, and all-in would be hyper-aggressive IMO. You can still get away from it on the next street.

[MasterLJ 0]

Call. The nut flush draw alone is giving you pot odds to call in a 3-way game.It's roughly 35-37% to make it with two cards left. Add in overcard (which may be dead to a set, but anyway) and any queen and you have lots of outs. You basically have 13 red-hot outs (well, Q being counted twice, but whatever, 12ish) plus you have 3 not-so-hot but possibly winning outs (Aces).You are getting the odds to draw. I would say that the only way I'd start thinking about folding this hand, is if the board pairs on the turn without it being a club.

[ghoti7four 0]

What about the fact that if you smooth call and make your flush its almost definately going to be a scare card at least for the LAG guy in seat 2? You'll take the pot, but lose the extra bets. Also adding to that question is another, how would seat 2. interpret your check on the flop? Does he know you very well or could he mistake your check to mean you had nothing going for you in the hand? I know it isn't made yet, but I think there is some argument for pushing all-in if you think seat 2. suspects you are weak. He could be bullying the girl expecting you to fold. However, considering the way you set it up I'm not at all convinced the girl doesn't have a hand--I know her call on the flop would suggest she doesn't but the preflop raise should still be a concern right? If you push in and seat 2 folds you could still be up against a set from the girl with a possible fullhouse... I still think you should push, but only because thats the type of play I always make after playing in a home game for nine hours. That way you don't have to worry about all that money weighing you down as you stumble home.

[Erudis 0]

i'd call here in the situation you described. it's a good price for your hand and I wouldn't want to screw that up by going bonkers and raising - and you're in first position. you're not in a tournament so there's no big hurry (and this is why i don't like an all-in here). call and see what happens. if you hit on the turn you have a lot of options. if you don't hit you still have options: you might make a read that you could bluff it down, you might get the right price to call again, you might just fold and move on. 4-handed game you should be seeing most flops and so there'll be more opportunities. anyways, i like a call here.

[akishore 0]

i appreciate all the replies, and i see that the majority of them are calls, while there are a few all-ins.so that you don't have to scroll up, here's the situation restated:blinds 50c/$1. girl raises to $7 on the button. i have A J in the SB, i call. seat 2 (BB) calls. pot is $21.flop comes K T 7 . i check. seat 2 bets $12. girl calls. pot is now $45 to me. i have about $70 left.here were my thoughts:1. i felt that seat 2's betting was not really a value bet as much as it was a bluff or a feeler bet. if he flopped a set of kings/tens/sevens, i felt that he would go for a checkraise (hoping the girl hit something) so that my call would give him dead money in the pot. further (something i didn't mention originally), i had noticed that most of his top pair or better bets were pot-sized, because he had a tendency to overprotect his hand against draws. i figured he might have top pair without top kicker (KQ/KJ) or even second pair (AT, JTs, etc.). he might even have just ace-high (AQ/AJ/A9). finally, he might just have an OESD (QJ).2. i did not want to put myself in a situation where the turn card was a blank and i was faced with a hefty bet, mainly a pot-sized bet from seat 2. if i called, i would have about $60 left, and the pot would be almost $60. if the turn came a blank and seat 2 bet the pot (or overbet it), i wouldn't have the proper odds to push with one card to come. i really didn't want to be in this situation.3. i felt that there were a lot of scare cards that could come on the turn to prevent me from getting paid off. if no one had better than TPTK, an ace might scare a hand like KQ (exception being AK/AT/A7). a third club would also give pause to seat 2 if both people called, especially me (he knows i would not stay involved in a pot with the girl unless i had the goods or was drawing). a A/Q/J/9/8/6 would also put three-straight on the board, and many of them would also compete possible open-enders (QJ would complete with A or 9, and 98 [admittedly an unlikely hand, unless it was possibly suited, since seat 2 knows i like to play suited connectors] would complete with J or 6]. if i completed on the turn, i would most likely have the nuts with only a set/two-pair redrawing against me, so i would not want to have my opponents slow down or fold if a scare card came on the turn.4. i was shortstacked, by far. this is the reason i hate being shortstacked in cash games, but i had no choice at this point. i was beyond the table max of $50 so i could not reload. i really did not want to simply call and leave myself completely vulnerable on the turn, since i would only have about the size of the pot left. again, if a blank came, i would be vulnerable to a pot-sized bet or a bluff by seat 2. if a scare card came that did not really complete my draws (maybe a 10 or a 7, pairing the board), i did not really have a deep enough stack to attempt a bluff.5. i felt that i had the best equity here. 12 of my outs were to the definite nuts (though a set/two-pair would have a redraw). for all i knew, my overcard outs might have been good as well. and finally, i wouldn't have doubted that my ace-high had a possibility of even being the best hand. if i pushed and both players called, i still had likely good equity, and if one or both folded, i wouldn't mind that either.based on those reasons, i pushed all-in for a raise of about $60 more (about the size of the pot).seat 2 quickly folded (he is the one who posted in this thread under the name Chief) his QQ, and the girl in seat 4 quickly called and turned over top two with K T .not a great situation! two of my gutshot outs were dead, one club out was dead (perhaps two if one of Chief's queens were a club), and my overcard draw was no longer good unless i got runner-runner AA/AJ/JJ.turn came 8 . river came 9 . i doubled through with a jack-high straight against top two pair.granted, the end results were great, but i was wondering if i made the correct play. i see that most of you said call, but i'm wondering if the points i made above justify a push.specifically, to those who said call, can you address these points:- a blank on the turn. pot is about $60, i have about $60 left.- scare card on the turn, especially if i hit my draws. consider also that i read seat 2 to be a little weak, and i had no idea where seat 4 was, though i read her for being weak with such a passive call anyway.- being so short-stacked and not having room to work with on the turn if i just called.thanks again,aseem

[Erudis 0]

imo there's no such thing as being short-stacked in a cash game; what i mean is, there's no time in a cash game where you have to make short-stack moves like deperation all ins and such. so i never take that into account when i'm playing a cash game, if i feel like i have the best hand or the best draw with the right odds i get chips in, if i don't, i fold.so after calling the flop (which is what i said I'd do):-"blank on the turn"60 bucks in the pot, 60 bucks in front of you. hopefully the guy with QQ gets worried about his hand and the passive player with KT allows you to see the river with the right odds. if not, fold. it's 4-handed, what's the big hurry?-"scare card on the turn, especially if i hit my draws. consider also that i read seat 2 to be a little weak, and i had no idea where seat 4 was, though i read her for being weak with such a passive call anyway"play like you would normally play... get paid off the best way you know how. if that means leading out because the passive player is going to call anything, then lead out. if this means check/raise then check/raise. - "being so short-stacked and not having room to work with on the turn if i just called"well, like i said, imo there's no such thing as being short-stacked in a cash game. there's no time you should be in a cash game and make a play you wouldn't normally make because you don't feel like you have enough chips in front of you.happy how it turned out for you, but i still like calling in that spot with those players.

[Erudis 0]

i should also be clear, i certainly don't think going all-in is a bad choice either, for me to push all my chips in here i would have had to have already been playing a certain way (i'd have to be in super-system mode). i doubt i'd be in super-system mode with a major calling station at the table 4-handed.

[Rocketwadster 0]

So, you did exactly what I suggested (going all-in), and it happened to work in this case. Notice though that the win was in a fashion that most people would not have even considered (backdoored a straight). I've lost more money to backdoored hands than I care to think about, mostly becuase when I made my decision to call or push a raise I didn't consider the backdoor possibilities of my opponent. When you factor those in as well for your own hand, it just seems to me like you had to go all-in when you did. Well played in my opinion. :wink:

[Binbs 0]

I would definately raise more than the minimum on the LAG Seat 2 guy.He is clearly trying to take the pot down right there with his bet. He might have a hand. He will fold if its a good hand but not with a lot of outs and will call if he feels he has some outs to the nuts.Raise him back more than the minimum so you show that you have a monster and possibly push him outta the pot.

[RISEorFall 0]

my question here is: if you didn't mind only one caller (or none) on your all-in bet after the flop, then why would that change after the turn, even if it was a scare card. If, like you said, the girl is a calling station, you won't lose her business on the turn. As long as you don;t make it painfully obvious you have it. I say call, then check/raise the turn if you hit. You might get more money out of the bettor if he bets again on the turn, and he mighta (or did) fold to the all-in. No point in raising to find out where you are...with her raise pre-flop, and your call, then his, Between the three of you obviously all of you have high cards or a pocket pair. with a K and a 10 on the board somebody has atleast a pair. I don't see at all how you'd be ahead right now. The only hands that would call your all-in here have you beat, and you have to draw against. You can just call and then if you miss on the turn, dump it and only be out 12 bucks, or go all in and if you end up missing, be out 60 bucks.