why oh why must the chasers be chasing against me?

[Rocketwadster 0]

Here's the latest from a tourney I sat at (I say sat at because I didnt really play to much at this one due to bad cards, bad players, etc.):Game #772587373 (Level III, Game #2) - 15/30 No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2005/03/31-10:12:43.4 (CST)Table "Manaka" ($5 tournament) -- Seat 2 is the buttonSeat 1: gooner23 (1,061.00 in chips)Seat 2: Cybercrow54 (1,265.00 in chips)Seat 3: usmc66/76 (2,374.00 in chips)Seat 4: riddler33 (940.00 in chips)Seat 6: SB1574 (865.00 in chips)Seat 7: Radio DJ (765.00 in chips)Seat 8: pbairship (500.00 in chips)Seat 9: richiesails (1,190.00 in chips)Seat 10: Rocketwad (1,040.00 in chips)usmc66/76: Post Small Blind (15)riddler33: Post Big Blind (30)Dealing...Dealt to Rocketwad [ Kc ]Dealt to Rocketwad [ Jc ]gooner23 said, "lol"SB1574 : Fold Radio DJ: Fold pbairship: Fold richiesails: Fold pbairship said, "i got the exact same back"pbairship said, "god damn"Rocketwad: Call (30)gooner23: Call (30)Cybercrow54: Call (30)usmc66/76: Call (15)riddler33: Check *** FLOP *** : [ Js 7h 3c ]usmc66/76: Check riddler33: Check Rocketwad: Bet (70)gooner23: Call (70)Cybercrow54: Fold usmc66/76: Call (70)riddler33: Fold *** TURN *** : [ Js 7h 3c ] [ 3h ]usmc66/76: Check Rocketwad: Bet (70)gooner23: Call (70)usmc66/76: Call (70)*** RIVER *** : [ Js 7h 3c 3h ] [ 4d ]usmc66/76: Check Rocketwad: Check riddler33 said, "lucky"gooner23: Check *** SUMMARY ***Pot: 570 | Board: [ Js 7h 3c 3h 4d ]gooner23 lost 170 [ 7c 5s ] (two pair, sevens and threes)Cybercrow54 lost 30 (folded) usmc66/76 bet 170, collected 570, net +400 (showed hand) [ 4h 4s ] (a full house, fours full of threes)riddler33 lost 30 (folded) SB1574 didn't bet (folded) Radio DJ didn't bet (folded) pbairship didn't bet (folded) richiesails didn't bet (folded) Rocketwad lost 170 (showed hand) [ Kc Jc ] (two pair, jacks and threes)I limped in (mistake #1 by me...maybe...cards weren't that great, especially from mid position). I bet almost the size of the pot after the flop with top pair and a good kicker. :-) Two callers. Turn was a scare card, so I checked (mistake #2 by me...maybe). :? River was harmless, but I didnt like the pregnant pause by the hand-winner when he checked, so I checked also (only thing I did right...maybe). :wink:

[Smasharoo 0]

Not raising KJs in the CO first in is so bad it makes the baby Jesus cry bloody tears of salty rage.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Not raising KJs in the CO first in is so bad it makes the baby Jesus cry bloody tears of salty rage.

I said this was my first mistake. what should I have done after the flop (ie. did I bet enough, not enough, etc.), and then on the turn/river?

[Briguy 0]

Put a pot-sized bet out there on both the flop and the turn. Not that betting the pot would make USMC/doofus fold, but that's not really the point. You want him to chase his two outer for increasingly larger bets. Neither player was showing strength.

[Vade 0]

To answer the question in the topic titleThey are chasers it's what they do

[Erudis 0]

and why would a poker player be complaining about people getting their money in there with losing hands?

[Rocketwadster 0]

and why would a poker player be complaining about people getting their money in there with losing hands?

I am baffled by what you are saying here. Are you complaining that I was complaining (lol)? The guy was clearly chasing with his low pocket pair.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Pocket pairs call you down, you show down your card, and they muck? Or they fold to river bets? People chace down 'cause they suck... Why do you think they are called "suckers" for? Because they are good? if you raise preflop, then make a big bet on the flop, this hand is over far before the river. Also, the bottom card pairing should NOT have made you check.. this is a really good card for you, and you should have bet big, and you never would have saw the river....

[Erudis 0]

and why would a poker player be complaining about people getting their money in there with losing hands?

I am baffled by what you are saying here. Are you complaining that I was complaining (lol)? The guy was clearly chasing with his low pocket pair.

baffling eh..? i'm the one who is baffled. why would you be upset about the guy who is "clearly chasing with his low pocket pair"? you should be doing cartwheels and fist-pumping.

[Guest XXEddie]

To answer the question in the topic titleThey are chasers it's what they do

seriouslyyoure gonna love chaser the other 18 times outta 20 in which you will still have the best hand

[obs 0]

To answer the question in the topic titleThey are chasers it's what they do

seriouslyyoure gonna love chaser the other 18 times outta 20 in which you will still have the best hand

Or he could take the better route and move up in limits so there are less chasers.

[ahosang 0]

To answer the question in the topic titleThey are chasers it's what they do

seriouslyyoure gonna love chaser the other 18 times outta 20 in which you will still have the best hand

Or he could take the better route and move up in limits so there are less chasers.

It's making money out of chasers that's the problem, not avoiding them. Easy money is made from people who call too often in any form of poker.

[looshle 6]

Or he could take the better route and move up in limits so there are less chasers.Yea, i love winning small pots so that everyone breaks even and we all just have fun :-) Let's just assume that people in higher limits don't chase because they are much better. You're way off on that assumption but just for arguments sake.Why would you want to sit at a table with 9 other tight aggressive people. When I raise with AA i want EVERYONE to call me. I want everyone staying in until the river too. When I get sucked out on, I don't complain about it, I enjoy it because I know people are calling me down with trash hands, which is exactly what I want.Everyone makes the argument that they can't beat the lower limits because everyone at that limit sucks. There's not much logic in your kind of thinking at all.

[Vade 0]

Everyone makes the argument that they can't beat the lower limits because everyone at that limit sucks. There's not much logic in your kind of thinking at all.

Everyone includes the person complaining ya know

[Rocketwadster 0]

Or he could take the better route and move up in limits so there are less chasers.Yea, i love winning small pots so that everyone breaks even and we all just have fun :-) Let's just assume that people in higher limits don't chase because they are much better. You're way off on that assumption but just for arguments sake.Why would you want to sit at a table with 9 other tight aggressive people. When I raise with AA i want EVERYONE to call me. I want everyone staying in until the river too. When I get sucked out on, I don't complain about it, I enjoy it because I know people are calling me down with trash hands, which is exactly what I want.Everyone makes the argument that they can't beat the lower limits because everyone at that limit sucks. There's not much logic in your kind of thinking at all.

You are crazy to want eeryoe to call you with your pocket aces. As the number of callers go up, the value of your aces goes down. Any player worth their salt should know that. Unless you were being humourous, in which case, that is HILARIOUS!!!

[dms26 3]

To answer the question in the topic titleThey are chasers it's what they do

seriouslyyoure gonna love chaser the other 18 times outta 20 in which you will still have the best hand

Or he could take the better route and move up in limits so there are less chasers.

Obviously you've never watched higher limits, I saw a guy playing 10/20 NL call 127 preflop with j5 suited. People chase at all levels, maybe not quite as much but they still do. I've also seen Arieh call an all in with middle pair and a gutshot straight draw for 1/3 of his stack.

[Emptyeye 0]

You are crazy to want eeryoe to call you with your pocket aces. As the number of callers go up, the value of your aces goes down. Any player worth their salt should know that. Unless you were being humourous, in which case, that is HILARIOUS!!!

ANNNT, wrong.The value of the aces goes down, yes. The value of the aces does NOT, however, go down far enough to offset the fact that the money in the pots goes UP with each successive caller.10-handed, you have a 20% chance of the aces holding up. "LOL, why would I want to stay in with an 80% chance of losing, you're hilarious!" you say. But let's look at the math. With ten people in the pot, there will be 10X dollars in the pot, where X is your investment.8 times out of ten, you win 0.2 times out of ten, you win 10X, for a total of 20X.20X / 10 times = you win, on average, 2X over the long run every time you're in a 10-handed pot with aces.By the way, I agree that terrible play exists at all levels, particularly with the NLHE craze being where it is. If some rich business owner has watched the game on TV and wants to play fishy at 1K/2K, they'll do it.

[looshle 6]

You are crazy to want eeryoe to call you with your pocket aces. As the number of callers go up, the value of your aces goes down. Any player worth their salt should know that. Unless you were being humourous, in which case, that is HILARIOUS!!!Any player "worth their salt" looks at the long term and not the short run. Like Emptyeye said AA is about 20% to win the hand preflop. If I get to put 1/10th of the money in all the way to the river to win 1/5 of the time I don't understand how you find it funny.OMG!! MORE $ FOR ME! HILARIOUS!!! LOLZZZZZZ

[Rocketwadster 0]

you can't make those comparisons as you have listed them, as ten players are not going to call all the way to the river in all ten hands. I agree that aces are a favorite, but they go down in their percentage the more people go in. You will not come out ahead if you win 2 times out of ten against those multiple opponents, unless all the opponents go in every time all the way to the river. It just doesn't work that way. Bad example you have given in my opinion.I don't have the time to do some more accurate examples, perhaps someone else does. Show how the math works winning one out of ten times, with a few times having four callers, a few with three, a few heads up, etc. then see what the math says to see if it is a winning proposition.

[Erudis 0]

and this is because the only hands that will stay in at the flop are the one's capable of beating aces. also, in the example, you're also assuming that in order to call down the flop you're still only going to have to put 1/10 in the whole way, which won't happen either, unless the others allow you to.with AA all you have is top pair (if you don't improve), how many big pots do you see won with top pair (and i don't mean preflop all-ins)? compare this to how often people lose big pots with top pair! you're gonna go broke with AA if you intentionally allow a lot of callers preflop. this is home-game stuff and not winning play; this is the reason so many people say things like "i never win with AA...KK...etc"

[Rocketwadster 0]

and this is because the only hands that will stay in at the flop are the one's capable of beating aces. also, in the example, you're also assuming that in order to call down the flop you're still only going to have to put 1/10 in the whole way, which won't happen either, unless the others allow you to.with AA all you have is top pair (if you don't improve), how many big pots do you see won with top pair (and i don't mean preflop all-ins)? compare this to how often people lose big pots with top pair! you're gonna go broke with AA if you intentionally allow a lot of callers preflop. this is home-game stuff and not winning play; this is the reason so many people say things like "i never win with AA...KK...etc"

so, are you agreeing with me or with Looshle and emptyeye?

[Erudis 0]

i'm saying it's a bad idea to try and play AA with the purpose of getting a lot of callers and banking on your 20% win chance. it's bad in the short term, it's bad in the long term.

[Rocketwadster 0]

in other words, you agree with me. Thanks :wink: Not sure how we got on the topic of allowing many people to call when you have ace ace (as my original post was based on a bad decision or two on my part, where I vented about getting sucked out by someone chasing a small pocket pair). Two totally different topics, but good discussion nevertheless. 8)

[UglyJimStudly 0]

You are crazy to want eeryoe to call you with your pocket aces.  As the number of callers go up, the value of your aces goes down.  Any player worth their salt should know that.

Like a lot of things that are supposedly common knowledge, "any player worth their salt" is wrong. With aces, the value added by each additional person tossing in a bet exceeds the value lost by adding another hand that might hit a miracle to win. Or in other words, in a 10-handed holdem game in which you have pocket aces and all 9 people call you, your chance to win will be greater than 10%; in almost all cases, it will be greater than 20%, and it'll average close to 25%. That means you're most likely somewhere between 3-1 to 4-1 to win, but you're getting 9-1 on your bets. Any poker player that doesn't understand what a good deal that is in a cash game isn't worth very much salt.So if you get upset at people chasing aces in your games, please send 'em over to mine.

[Rocketwadster 0]

again, I have no idea how we got on the topic of pocket aces, as I didnt have them in the original post (I had slightly better than crap but got a good flop).And I am not disagreeing with someof what people are saying, but they keep using unrealistic examples of the math to try to justify their thnking. In order to make your case, you need to use probable items in order to confirm the math. Having 9 callers when you have pocket aces is not probable at many limits (not even the nickel and dime tables except for the occasional moment when teh planets have aligned). Use an example that is more appropriate, such as having 5 callers pre-flop, 4 callers post flop, two callers post turn, two callers post river. Then use another example where you have only 3 callers pre-flop, three after teh flop, two after the turn, etc. Take 5 or 6 of those examples, add up the money, figure out the percentage needed to win etc. then show me if it is a good idea or not to allow as many callers as possible EVERY TIME you have aces, as that is what certain people are saying, which in my opinion does not work over the long haul.