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How To Play Bottom Two Pair


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#1 CoranMoran

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 05:10 PM

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is BB with 3:spade:, 8:club:. UTG posts a blind of $0.50. UTG (poster) checks, MP calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.Flop: (4 SB) 3:club:, K:spade:, 8:heart: (4 players)SB bets, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP folds.Turn: (3 BB) 7:club: (2 players)SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.River: (7 BB) K:diamond: (2 players)SB bets, Hero folds.Final Pot: 8 BBI think my overall game with bottom two pair is weak.There are so many cards that can destroy this hand, is it best never to try to slowplay this against multiple opponents?Against a very straightfordward villain, can one aceeptably throw this marginal hand away on the river?Or do the odds always demand a call?Please advise.--cm

#2 No_Neck

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 07:18 PM

View PostCoranMoran, on Friday, February 24th, 2006, 8:10 PM, said:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is BB with 3:spade:, 8:club:. UTG posts a blind of $0.50. UTG (poster) checks, MP calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.Flop: (4 SB) 3:club:, K:spade:, 8:heart: (4 players)SB bets, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP folds.Turn: (3 BB) 7:club: (2 players)SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.River: (7 BB) K:diamond: (2 players)SB bets, Hero folds.Final Pot: 8 BBI think my overall game with bottom two pair is weak.There are so many cards that can destroy this hand, is it best never to try to slowplay this against multiple opponents?Against a very straightfordward villain, can one aceeptably throw this marginal hand away on the river?Or do the odds always demand a call?Please advise.--cm
I don't think you can call the river there, you have KK887 I don't think that is going to cut it. Don't slowplay bottom two pair. Why not raise the flop?

#3 WestcoastCanuck

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 07:56 PM

Eh, it is a fairly draw free board. I don't mind your line that much. I would bet, but only because you will get calls from UTG and MP on the flop (when they are basically drawing dead) a lot at .5 - 1.00.Remember, if he had a king, he was seeing that river whether you bet the flop or not.

#4 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 10:58 PM

I like the way you played the hand, you just got very unlucky on the river most likely. In most cases a fold is correct unless you REALLY know your opponent and know that he will often attempt rookie bluffs. One other thing to think about with your hand since it is extremely vulnerable is to play it SLOW to the river. I realize most people are thinking you should play it fast, but you aren't getting a king out no matter what you do. The safer way to play it, especially in a tournament situation, is to slow play it to the river, and then raise the end if it's a safe card. In this case, with the King hitting the river you could either make the crying call, or decide to save a bet and fold.
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#5 Abbaddabba

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 12:27 AM

Quote

One other thing to think about with your hand since it is extremely vulnerable is to play it SLOW to the river. I realize most people are thinking you should play it fast, but you aren't getting a king out no matter what you do.
Maybe im interpreting this incorrectly. Are you saying to wait for a safe river to raise? ("play it slow to the river")If you want to look at hands you're vulnerable to, a pair of 8's is often drawing to 5 cards (if they have a kicker that will play), as are all pairs above 8. By the turn, they're each drawing to as many as 8 cards. A king isnt the only thing you're vulnerable to.Plus you will often get 3bet on the flop by a king with a strong kicker, which'll get a lot more value. (at these stakes, you'll get 3bet with a lot less than top pair even with no draws present)

#6 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 06:10 AM

In certain cases, against the right opponent I would say yes, wait for a safe river card from time to time. You'll also give your opponent tp randomly bluff an extra bet in spots where he may even be drawing dead.
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#7 LooseCannon

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 07:43 AM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Saturday, February 25th, 2006, 6:10 AM, said:

In certain cases, against the right opponent I would say yes, wait for a safe river card from time to time. You'll also give your opponent tp randomly bluff an extra bet in spots where he may even be drawing dead.
Besides a king, what cards do you consider unsafe river cards given that board through the turn.

#8 Abbaddabba

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 03:58 PM

I cant see there being many instances where the villain is betting into a field of 4 from the SB like that with something that's drawing dead to us.It's only true if he's leading with bottom pair no kicker, or no pair/no draw (there are no flush or straight draws for him to be semi bluffing). Anything more is drawing to in or around 8 cards by the turn (unless we already filled up). I think we're roughly indifferent to them calling or folding the turn, given the pot size.And given the raise, we can check behind when a dirty river hits, or bet a safe one. And as it happened, fold to a donk-bet that virtually always has us beat.

#9 iggymcfly

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Posted 08 March 2006 - 09:34 AM

I think the hand was good. I also agree that you're better off not raising the flop because you'll have no fold equity there anyway. I think raising either the turn or the river is fine.Oh, and at .5/1, I think I'd call the river here. It's amazing how many random bad situations you'll see someone bluff ace high with.
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#10 sirch1

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 01:29 PM

this was a good post, i had been wondering what the best way to play and i think i foudn it
always try and make yourself pot commited that way you cant fold




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