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Villain is 12/7 with a 3bet of 3.5 and an aggro factor of 4 over 150 handsferal_cow_icon.gifFeral Cow Poker Hand ConverterFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.05/$0.10 - 9 playersHJ: $4.00 CO: $7.19 Button: $9.50 SB: $9.13 BB: $10.00 UTG: $30.37 UTG+1: $4.30 MP: $27.98 MP2: $10.00 (Hero)Preflop: ($0.15) Hero is MP2 with Ts.gifKs.gif (9 players)3 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Button calls $0.40, 2 foldsFlop: ($0.95) Tc.gifKd.gif3c.gif (2 players)Hero bets $0.60, Button calls $0.60Turn: ($2.15) Js.gif (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $0.50, Hero raises to $2, Button raises to $8.15, Hero ????

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Hero folds.But why check the turn?
I was expecting a bet, and there aren't too many drawing type hands in his range... i just didn't expect this type of minibet - three bet scenario
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Hero folds.But why check the turn?
I'm not saying I do it a lot, but I think check raising the turn looks more powerful than firing again. We know that villain isn't bluffing now and we find out we are beat for the minimum. If we bet 1.5-2 on the turn are we going to just fold if we get raised to 4 or 5?
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c/ring the turn is really bad and nothing but FPS. You're risking him checking back and seeing his draw cheaply. At 10nl especially you don't need to take lines like this just bet three streets.

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I'm not saying I do it a lot, but I think check raising the turn looks more powerful than firing again. We know that villain isn't bluffing now and we find out we are beat for the minimum. If we bet 1.5-2 on the turn are we going to just fold if we get raised to 4 or 5?
You're losing a ton of value from draws because they're checking behind you on the turn and seeing a free river card and you're also losing value against hands you beat. He's likely betting with any 2 cards after you check the turn.What happens if he raises your turn lead out? Same thing that happens if he raises your check/raise....you fold.
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c/ring the turn is really bad and nothing but FPS. You're risking him checking back and seeing his draw cheaply. At 10nl especially you don't need to take lines like this just bet three streets.
What drawing type hands do you expect to be in a 12/7's range? AX of clubs maybe sometimes... but what makes you think it will always check back as well?Getting caught up in what limit it is usually is a horrible mistake. If you know your villain type you know your villain type and the limit defaults do not kick in.Also, firing the turn keeps exactly 4 hands we beat in. KQ, which is very live. Ax clubs, which is very live, QJ which is very live, and JT. Checking the turn, and leading checked back rivers gets us a 2nd street of value from much much more. Not to mention I expect every single one of those hands mentioned to bet a vast majority of the time.
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What drawing type hands do you expect to be in a 12/7's range? AX of clubs maybe sometimes... but what makes you think it will always check back as well?Getting caught up in what limit it is usually is a horrible mistake. If you know your villain type you know your villain type and the limit defaults do not kick in.Also, firing the turn keeps exactly 4 hands we beat in. KQ, which is very live. Ax clubs, which is very live, QJ which is very live, and JT. Checking the turn, and leading checked back rivers gets us a 2nd street of value from much much more. Not to mention I expect every single one of those hands mentioned to bet a vast majority of the time.
Yea man, c/ring is so much better. My bad. I apologize for questioning your superiority. Won't happen again.Sorry bro.
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Yea man, c/ring is so much better. My bad. I apologize for questioning your superiority. Won't happen again.Sorry bro.
The more you condescend me the more it's going to make me want to point out stupid and flawed shit in your strategy.1) you're afraid of giving a free turn card bc his range is draw heavy2) you advocate 3 barrels of value... where if his range is draw heavy you'd need to c-c bricked rivers for value
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Also, firing the turn keeps exactly 4 hands we beat in. KQ, which is very live. Ax clubs, which is very live, QJ which is very live, and JT. Checking the turn, and leading checked back rivers gets us a 2nd street of value from much much more. Not to mention I expect every single one of those hands mentioned to bet a vast majority of the time.
If firing the turn keeps exactly 4 hands you beat in, then what does c/r'ing the turn keep in?
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i mean has he sized his bets like this at any point before. it wouldnt be terrible to just call he weirdo raise and see if we improve. i mean i could find a fold against the right villain. The thing about c/r here is we turn our very nice hand into a total bluff, i dont love this. i would rather we have air here then a hand with showdown value

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I think you skipped over this.
The intention was to check and re-evaluate. If he blasted at the pot, or made a reasonable sized bet, I was content with taking a call down line. If he checked behind I was planning on v-betting most rivers, as the bet/check/bet line from OOP gets looked up extremely thin at the lower limits. Since he was a tight player I wanted to keep his range as wide as possible as, although we has 2 pair, it's unlikely we get 3 straight up streets of value firing away here.The raise was reactionary to the gaybet, which is why I didn't make a particularly large one and was like "no ass, if you're betting make it a PSB to this much"
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The intention was to check and re-evaluate. If he blasted at the pot, or made a reasonable sized bet, I was content with taking a call down line. If he checked behind I was planning on v-betting most rivers, as the bet/check/bet line from OOP gets looked up extremely thin at the lower limits. Since he was a tight player I wanted to keep his range as wide as possible as, although we has 2 pair, it's unlikely we get 3 straight up streets of value firing away here.The raise was reactionary to the gaybet, which is why I didn't make a particularly large one and was like "no ass, if you're betting make it a PSB to this much"
Still doesn't answer the question.If betting the turn only keeps 4 hands you beat in, what hands that you beat stay in when you check/raise?Unless you are trying to tell me you more just stubbornly c/r'ed and there was really no reason behind it.
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Ok, evade the answers...might make you look bad...
I did answer the question. In fact I said verbatum what I was thinking. It's not my fault you chose to read it different. If you don't think his range suddenly changes, and therefore our move, when he gaybets that's fine.All I needed with this thread was assurance that laying down this 2 pair was correct.
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I did answer the question. In fact I said verbatum what I was thinking. It's not my fault you chose to read it different. If you don't think his range suddenly changes, and therefore our move, when he gaybets that's fine.All I needed with this thread was assurance that laying down this 2 pair was correct.
Definitely de-tingly-ing.
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  • 2 weeks later...
What drawing type hands do you expect to be in a 12/7's range? AX of clubs maybe sometimes... but what makes you think it will always check back as well?Getting caught up in what limit it is usually is a horrible mistake. If you know your villain type you know your villain type and the limit defaults do not kick in.Also, firing the turn keeps exactly 4 hands we beat in. KQ, which is very live. Ax clubs, which is very live, QJ which is very live, and JT. Checking the turn, and leading checked back rivers gets us a 2nd street of value from much much more. Not to mention I expect every single one of those hands mentioned to bet a vast majority of the time.
Reading your posts hurts my head. People come in and offer advice and you talk down to everyone who responds to you.1. The limits DO matter. Standard players at $10NL play differently than they do at $100NL and differently from those at $1000NL. Yeah, you can have reads on people and that's good, but downplaying the effect of the limits on your decisions is not a good move.2. Why do you think his range is going to be so super narrow when you bet the turn? Why not start with the question: Is it better to bet or to check? If you think about it for just a minute, betting is superior to checking for a multitude of reasons. You charge his draws, you get value from worse hands and if he really is that tight, then you have a super easy bet/fold. Checking doesn't do anything. You let him get free cards if he chooses when he's drawing. You get yourself a little lost in the hand and you put yourself in a position to pay off more bets from a hand that beats you because you think to yourself "well, I've given him some rope so I gotta call down" when based on his tendencies, you know he's not really bluffing that often since his ranges are so narrow.3. Your hand is not really strong enough to checkraise here. His range is fairly tight and some of it beats us and the rest is drawing to beat us. If you checkraise, you're putting in an unnecessary amount of money into the pot when you don't know how often he'll be semi bluffing (fwiw, if he's tight, it's usually not that often, so you end up c/ring when he's value betting hands that beat us instead of c/ring when he's semibluffing a draw) and when he'll be value betting.4. I also don't know how you make the statement "there aren't too many drawing hands in his range" when the board is KT3J with a flush draw and there are literally 11,000 draws that people can have. He called OTB. Yeah, he's tight, but just because he's tight doesn't mean it's impossible that he decides to play 89s or similar hands. Yeah, they're not the bulk of his range, but discounting them entirely is a mistake.5. It's an easy fold on the turn when he 3bets you given your read on him. You beat exactly JT for value and that's if he'd even 3bet the turn with it. Next time just lead the turn, charge his draws and just fold to a raise if he raises your lead.
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