bad call?

[Mattnxtc 0]

1/2 10 max...about 8 playingI am in the bb with 10 9 offsuit...there was one caller then an extremely loose player raised from mp...now he was raising just about every hand...2 other callers and it gets back to me..now at this time the pot is at around 8-9-1 so its a pretty easy call right? 10 9 isnt a big hand but if it hits its a big payoff?

[MrNiceGuy 0]

its a pretty easy call

[Mattnxtc 0]

thought so...just to gloat..that hand lead to a 52 dollar pot that went my way...and i ended the 20 minutes the table lasted up 54 bucks...one of the biggest rushes ive been on ever

[akishore 0]

uh, what?why would you defend with 10-9 _offsuit_ in the big blind in a multiway pot?mp's raising standards become completely irrelevant here.aseem

[Mattnxtc 0]

u wouldnt defend getting 8.5-1 to call? why wouldnt mp raising standards come into play...if i feel that i may have a better hand then him isnt it a good call? i watched him cap with jack high a few hands earlier so i didnt respect any raise he had and nobody else did either..when i broke him he capped with ace high and no draws

[akishore 0]

no, i wouldn't defend getting 8.5-to-1.your hand sucks multiway. if he was raising and it was heads-up, i would definitely defend.mp's raising standards become irrelevant because he could turn his cards face up and show 7-2 offsuit and you still can't profitably play 10-9 offsuit out of position against three OTHER hands in a big, multiway pot.you should even be folding weak offsuit hands like K-J and A-10 and Q-J and worse. why would you even consider calling with 10-9 offsuit?just out of curiousity, have you read SSHE? (not meant to be condescending at all, of course)aseem

[Guest XXEddie]

uh, what?why would you defend with 10-9 _offsuit_ in the big blind in a multiway pot?mp's raising standards become completely irrelevant here.aseem

youre right thats irrelavantthe important thing is your 8.5-1 pot oddsIll call this all day looking for a good flop, anything less than 2 pair on the flop and Ill fold easily

[akishore 0]

by the way, when you're up against a maniac, you don't loosen up your standards that far. the best you do is loosen up them up on your RERAISES, not your calls.you want to isolate the maniac and make money off him postflop. you also want to have POSITION on him, that's key. you're not isolating him here, so playing a bad hand at all does no good, and you don't have position on him.the biggest issue, though, is that your weak offsuit hand with little top pair value SUCKS multiway!aseem

[akishore 0]

right, i must be in another universe.directly from SSHE.tight gamesbig blindagainst a raiseplay: same hands that you would play from late position for one bet, except remove the weak offsut hands AT, KJ-KT, QJ-QT, and JT...loose gamesbig blindagainst a raiseplay: same hands that you would play from late position for one bet, except remove the weak offsuit hands AT, KJ-KT, QJ-QT and JT...and might i add, T9o is playable in late position for one bet in neither game.wow, i don't think i have anything more to add to this thread. i think i'm losing my mind when everyone is agreeing that this is an easy preflop call.aseem

[Mattnxtc 0]

no, i wouldn't defend getting 8.5-to-1.your hand sucks multiway. if he was raising and it was heads-up, i would definitely defend.mp's raising standards become irrelevant because he could turn his cards face up and show 7-2 offsuit and you still can't profitably play 10-9 offsuit out of position against three OTHER hands in a big, multiway pot.you should even be folding weak offsuit hands like K-J and A-10 and Q-J and worse. why would you even consider calling with 10-9 offsuit?just out of curiousity, have you read SSHE? (not meant to be condescending at all, of course)aseem

ive read it several times and know the general hand requirements..but as he states..sometimes u gotta vary from it as needed. I didnt feel that with the pot odds what they were against a guy who was clearly raising just to raise that the hand requirements were as necessary. my only point about the mp is that nobody respected any raise he made...so everybody would be callin with less than top hands...if anybody had a top hand they would 3 bet...none did so i felt alright to call with the odds i had...if i hit the flop im gonna take a huge pot down...if i miss im only down 2...seems almost automatic with a 109

[MrNiceGuy 0]

uh, what?why would you defend with 10-9 _offsuit_ in the big blind in a multiway pot?mp's raising standards become completely irrelevant here.aseem

I'm defending getting 9.5-1 (assuming UTG calls) because I'll flop two pair or better 4.8% of the time with good implied odds, and I'll flop a 2-way straight draw over 10% of the time as well. Not to mention that top pair might be good here.

[akishore 0]

so where exactly are you drawing the line? or are you just going by "feel" and figuring no one has a top hand and you have a 19-to-1 chance of flopping two pair with any two cards?are you defending with 72o here?how about 65o?how about A2o?how about 32s?how about 85o?just wondering what your guidelines are, or if it was just a spur-of-the-moment feeling that your pot odds are good and you can win a big pot if you flop something nice.aseem

[akishore 0]

uh, what?why would you defend with 10-9 _offsuit_ in the big blind in a multiway pot?mp's raising standards become completely irrelevant here.aseem

I'm defending getting 9.5-1 (assuming UTG calls) because I'll flop two pair or better 4.8% of the time with good implied odds, and I'll flop a 2-way straight draw over 10% of the time as well. Not to mention that top pair might be good here.

1. you can flop two pair and still lose.2. you can flop an open-ended straight draw and miss, or hit and still lose.3. you can flop top pair and still lose.i think these percentages are grossly inaccurate and irrelevant when it comes to importance of defending.aseem

[Mattnxtc 0]

sarcasim really isnt needed. U know i wouldnt make a call with any of those and nobody else here would either...the only point im tryin to make is that i felt 109 is a borderline hand...if it was suited there wouldnt even be an issue i dont think...sorry that i dont play exactly by the book...910 would be about the absolute lowest i would go in terms of making a call of a raise. the 9 is most certainly live with the 10 likely being live also...910 gives me plenty of drawing opportunities. i think its a much tougher decision post flop as to how to continue then on whether to call with the huge odds preflop

[brando 0]

I know this hand is os and out of position, but isn't that why you play these hands b/c the pot is multiway? I"m really confused or really tired right now.

[akishore 0]

i wasn't being sarcastic at all. i really was wondering where you drew the line.playing 10-9 offsuit there isn't much better than playing 8-7 offsuit, in all honesty. it IS better, of course, but not by mouch.and don't mention how "live" your cards might be. that's totally inaccurate and false and irrelevant here. you only mention that when you KNOW you're up against big cards. you have NO such information here, and that's just speculation that's intended to make you feel better about what you want to do.offsuit connectors are really way overrated. they suck pretty bad.well, i don't know what else to say. i can pretty confidently say that calling with 10-9 offsuit there is -EV, but i have no way to prove that, so i'll let it be.aseem

[akishore 0]

I know this hand is os and out of position, but isn't that why you play these hands b/c the pot is multiway? I"m really confused or really tired right now.

no.offsuit hands suck multiway.like, really suck.being out of position sucks with hands that tend to be drawing hands postflop, also. not as bad as being offsuit, but it still sucks. (less information available for you to push equity edges, you can't take free cards, etc.)to use kdawg's line, this hand just blows everywhich way.aseemEDIT: also add that not only do offsuit hands suck multiway, hands with weak top pair value also suck multiway. he has no suitedness, weak top pair value, and connectedness (preflop dimensions). he also has no position and no informational advantage (postflop qualities). this hand really just... sucks.

[brando 0]

lol @ aki, you've had some hostility lately I wouldn't call here personally, probably b/c my play is weak out of the blinds.New situation:You're on the button, 5 limpers to you and you have 9Tos, do you fold there?

[akishore 0]

sorry if i'm seeming hostile.yes, i still fold 10-9 offsuit on the button after five limpers.aseem

[Guest XXEddie]

I know this hand is os and out of position, but isn't that why you play these hands b/c the pot is multiway? I"m really confused or really tired right now.

no.offsuit hands suck multiway.like, really suck.being out of position sucks with hands that tend to be drawing hands postflop, also. not as bad as being offsuit, but it still sucks. (less information available for you to push equity edges, you can't take free cards, etc.)to use kdawg's line, this hand just blows everywhich way.aseemEDIT: also add that not only do offsuit hands suck multiway, hands with weak top pair value also suck multiway. he has no suitedness, weak top pair value, and connectedness (preflop dimensions). he also has no position and no informational advantage (postflop qualities). this hand really just... sucks.

why do you keep bringing up TP value??who plays T9 or any other connected/suited hand like T9 for top pair?

[akishore 0]

why do you keep bringing up TP value??who plays T9 or any other connected/suited hand like T9 for top pair?

are you kidding?why do you think JTs is playable under the gun, but 54s isn't?they both have the exact same suitedness and connectedness.analyze hands preflop in three dimensions:1. top pair value2. suitedness3. connectednessand that's in the order of importance.you generally need 2 of the 3, but top pair value is so much more important than the other two that hands like AKo are playable even though they lack #2 and #3.that's why 82s isn't playable and 87o isn't playable. JTo is marginally playable, though, because it has a marginal amount of top pair value. only in late position unraised though.top pair value is very important.if it was T9s, i wouldn't be arguing one bit. in fact, i might make a case for reraising depending on the number of players in the pot and just how loose they are (though being out of position sucks).with T9o, you have ONLY connectedness. weak top pair value is a turnoff, but the biggest turnoff is no suitedness. suitedness is the most important thing for drawing hands in multiway pots.aseem

[brando 0]

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is MP3 with 6:diamond:' date=' 9:diamond:. CO posts a blind of $2. 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.ok does suitedness make THAT much of a difference? I don't understand.And yes you mentioned in your post that this limp might be a little loose.

[akishore 0]

9-6 suited was quite a loose limp there, i acknowledged it.i've also stated that as the pot gets more multiway, suitedness becomes the most important factor for speculative (drawing) hands.and 9-6 suited actually has a little amount of connectedness.the biggest reason for my limp, though, was that there were four weak, loose players to act behind me. this hand was good enough to exploit postflop edges against bad players.and to answer your question, yes, suitedness is THAT important in loose multiway pots. MUCH more so than connectedness.that's also why you can complete in the small blind with any two suited, but not with any two connected.aseem

[brando 0]

So if the 5 limpers in my above scenario were weak/loose would you fold 9Tos with position on them?

[Abbaddabba 0]

If the PFR is solely a preflop maniac, with everyone else being a rock, it's a shit call. I'd be more inclined to call if i knew the entire table played maniacally - and not just preflop, post flop too. One maniac in an otherwise solid table probably doesn't make it playable. Five maniacs (supposing that you're closing action with your blind defense) probably would.