Low Pp Facing Big Raise And Big Draw

[GaYeled 0]

hand 1.Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero ($272.25)SB ($257.50)BB ($552.50)UTG ($115.50)MP ($224.50)Preflop: Hero is Button with 3, 3. 1 fold, MP raises to $7, Hero calls $7, SB raises to $30, 1 fold, MP calls $23, Hero ?strictly for set mining obv. I have to put 23 when I'm pretty sure SB has a high PP and after MP calls, I have 2 stacks I can break if I hit a 3. Is this a good place to set mine?hand 2.Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero ($248)SB ($303.60)BB ($200)UTG ($213.05)MP ($476.15)Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, 3. 1 fold, MP calls $2, Hero raises to $9, 2 folds, MP calls $7.Flop: ($21) 3, T, 8(2 players)MP checks, Hero bets $16, MP raises to $37, Hero raises to $156, MP raises to $177, Hero raises to $296.Did I play this fine? MP limps A LOT and is passive and I've been attacking his limps the whole session...I can sense him getting frustrated with me. Should I have called the flop? He is a passive player but I was afraid that he'd bet really hard on the turn if i just call and he has like 10Q...plus there's always the chance he'd fold a weak ten...how does our line look?

[Zach6668 513]

Why are people raising with 53?

[GaYeled 0]

Why are people raising with 53?

thanks for this insightful response. Why? because I have position, a guy limped, we're deepstacked...which makes this +EV. Any more insightful comments?

[Zach6668 513]

thanks for this insightful response. Why? because I have position, a guy limped, we're deepstacked...which makes this +EV. Any more insightful comments?

Stop replying to my comments like a dick.I asked a question to start a discussion. It's what forums are for.I'm still not necessarily sure that raising with 5 high is +EV. Care to expand on your analysis, or are you too busy being a douchebag?

[GaYeled 0]

Stop replying to my comments like a dick.I asked a question to start a discussion. It's what forums are for.I'm still not necessarily sure that raising with 5 high is +EV. Care to expand on your analysis, or are you too busy being a douchebag?

you go to every thread and make a 3 word comment and that's what forums are for? I imagine you were trying to be a douchebag by the sarcastic, "who raises 35s?" There was much more to discuss even if you don't agree with raising 53s on the button after someone limped weakly. The limper is weak...he limps and is passive. I've raised his limps a couple times and he's folded. If you watch CR videos you'll see moves like this (picking off limpers with less then spectacular holdings) often. And the statement "I'm not necessarily sure raising with 5 high is +EV" is quite ignorant. You're ignoring all the other factors that I've mentioned and look at the only downside in this hand, our hand. We have position, a weak/passive opponent with a large stack and a hand that is easy to get away from if he's trapping. Obv this flop changes things if he has AA or KK and was slowplaying and makes it hard to get away. But even in those cases our equity is 44% aboutish.

[Zach6668 513]

Thank you for answering my question so eloquently. We're all here to learn. When I last played NL, I was able to win a considerable amount without ever raising 35s, so I wanted to know the merits of it. I will wait for a poster I respect to opine.

[GaYeled 0]

Thank you for answering my question so eloquently. We're all here to learn. When I last played NL, I was able to win a considerable amount without ever raising 35s, so I wanted to know the merits of it. I will wait for a poster I respect to opine.

what limits do you play? is that your graph in ur pic? just wondering

[Snamuh 0]

I don't like the 53s raise either but it looks like you're up against a set here? Giving you 9 outs. I don't know if I'm willing to get my money in unless it were a combo draw.

[SCS 0]

Hand 1 call, since we are closing the action. If there was someone left to act behind us I'd fold.Hand 2 - I call 90% of the time here preflop, but a raise isn't bad as a way to mix up your game and add some deception. Against this opponent I'd call the initial raise on the flop and reevaluate the turn.

[Zach6668 513]

what limits do you play? is that your graph in ur pic? just wondering

I generally play 2/4-5/10 SH LHE. Like I said, I haven't played NL in a while. When I did, I was just learning the game, so didn't go past $100 NL.That is my graph as my avatar, but it's merely one day of awesome variance/potential tilting at SH LHE.

[GaYeled 0]

Hand 1 call, since we are closing the action. If there was someone left to act behind us I'd fold.Hand 2 - I call 90% of the time here preflop, but a raise isn't bad as a way to mix up your game and add some deception. Against this opponent I'd call the initial raise on the flop and reevaluate the turn.

Ya...I think that's a better line then I took. It's a min raise and no point in shoving when I'm getting great pot odds/implied odds on this hand. I think a call would have been smarter.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

thanks for this insightful response. Why? because I have position, a guy limped, we're deepstacked...which makes this +EV. Any more insightful comments?

I have to agree with Zach on this one. We're raising with a 5 high flush draw?!? Position + Limper + stack = +ev?!?If you're looking for advice, I'd offer: Quit over-playing crappy hands and then trying to rationalize them by saying they're "+ev"

[CobaltBlue 662]

On the first hand, it's generally reasonable to set-mine against most opponents. That said, I'll get involved with plenty of pots like this and find that the other two players freeze up if they don't actually make a hand (missed AK or something along those lines).

We're raising with a 5 high flush draw?!?

We've got bottom pair also. However, I really dislike the size of the re-raise. We're pot-sticking ourselves without the value/fold equity of pushing. I think we need to re-pop to something in the neighborhood of $110 if we're going to make that re-raise and then evaluate if he comes back over the top since our two pair and trips outs are often dead at that point. Against a passive player, I prefer just calling the check-raise since he's giving us an excellent price. Granted, he may price you out on the turn...but big deal...we took a little shot and it didn't work. If he wants to play back at you and/or has a monster, we're very rarely going to knock him off this pot through bullying.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Flop: ($21) 3, T, 8(2 players)MP checks, Hero bets $16, MP raises to $37, Hero raises to $156, MP raises to $177, Hero raises to $296.

Anyone else find this VERY odd?The Bad Guy Checked then Raised $21 on a $16 bet and then reraised $21 again on a reraise of $119......are these random number generators?

[Acid_Knight 2]

The first hand is fine. The stacks are deep enough and the fact that there are gonna be 3 of you to the flop makes your implied odds seem great.In the 2nd hand, I dislike a lot of aspects about it.First, raising with 35 suited in position is NOT +EV. If it was +EV then that would imply that you should be doing it on a regular basis because when you do it, you expect to win money. The fact is that making plays like that should be the exception and not the rule becuase building pots with hands like that, in position or not, is a leak regardless of how well you'll be able to play. I'm not criticizing the raise with the hand because I like mixing up your play, but I am criticizing your justification for doing it and insisting that it is a long term profitable play.As for the flop, yeah, you flopped a combo draw with bottom pair and a 5 high flush draw. That's not a hand you're rushing to stack off with, ESPECIALLY against an opponent who you described as "passive" and yet is putting in lots of chips. It feels too much to me like you've invested your stack with a naked 5 high flush draw here, which is certainly -EV.When he makes that raise on the flop, I'd just be calling because he obviously has something and you really don't. You'll need to make your flush, so just peel off the next card with the good pot odds you're getting and see what happens.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Anyone else find this VERY odd?The Bad Guy Checked then Raised $21 on a $16 bet and then reraised $21 again on a reraise of $119......are these random number generators?

I saw that too. The hero only started wtih $248, so how can he put in the last raise to $296 anyway? I didn't think it mattered since it got the point across though.

[GaYeled 0]

The first hand is fine. The stacks are deep enough and the fact that there are gonna be 3 of you to the flop makes your implied odds seem great.In the 2nd hand, I dislike a lot of aspects about it.First, raising with 35 suited in position is NOT +EV. If it was +EV then that would imply that you should be doing it on a regular basis because when you do it, you expect to win money. The fact is that making plays like that should be the exception and not the rule becuase building pots with hands like that, in position or not, is a leak regardless of how well you'll be able to play. I'm not criticizing the raise with the hand because I like mixing up your play, but I am criticizing your justification for doing it and insisting that it is a long term profitable play.As for the flop, yeah, you flopped a combo draw with bottom pair and a 5 high flush draw. That's not a hand you're rushing to stack off with, ESPECIALLY against an opponent who you described as "passive" and yet is putting in lots of chips. It feels too much to me like you've invested your stack with a naked 5 high flush draw here, which is certainly -EV.When he makes that raise on the flop, I'd just be calling because he obviously has something and you really don't. You'll need to make your flush, so just peel off the next card with the good pot odds you're getting and see what happens.

You must have misunderstood me. I don't raise 53s in that spot 100% of the time because that would NOT be +EV. I do it maybe 20% of the time if I'm in a situation like that with the preconditiions I've described above. It mixes up my play to make it harder for my opponents to put me on hands. And imo, this seems like a favourable place to mix up my play. I agree that calling on flop is better. the betting is 'odd' because there was an all in and the converter did something weird.

[Acid_Knight 2]

You must have misunderstood me. I don't raise 53s in that spot 100% of the time because that would NOT be +EV. I do it maybe 20% of the time if I'm in a situation like that with the preconditiions I've described above. It mixes up my play to make it harder for my opponents to put me on hands. And imo, this seems like a favourable place to mix up my play. I agree that calling on flop is better. the betting is 'odd' because there was an all in and the converter did something weird.

No, I didn't misunderstand. I don't think that you do it 100% of the time or anywhere near that. What I was getting at is that when you do choose to play the hand, it's slightly -EV in the long run for playing the hand itself but in the big picture, it winds up being +EV becuase it makes you harder to put on a hand and makes players pay you off when you do have a big hand. But, IMO, suggesting that the play of 35 soooooted in itself is +EV is probably wrong.

[Zach6668 513]

The converter hates UB.

[docnuclear 0]

No, I didn't misunderstand. I don't think that you do it 100% of the time or anywhere near that. What I was getting at is that when you do choose to play the hand, it's slightly -EV in the long run for playing the hand itself but in the big picture, it winds up being +EV becuase it makes you harder to put on a hand and makes players pay you off when you do have a big hand. But, IMO, suggesting that the play of 35 soooooted in itself is +EV is probably wrong.

well regardless of the cards, raising a passive player in position and cbetting any flop might be +EV,whenhe calls or check raises then our cards should enter the picture imo.Here I'd call the cheap ch raise and seee what comes on the turn but you didn't flop a monster, and as was pointed out a ch/r by a passive opponent is pretty bad news.Hand 1 you're calling 23 : 67 so a little less than 3 : 1, you're gonna make your set 1 : 7.5 so you need to make more than an extra 23*4.5=101.5 to make this a profitable play. If you call the pot is going to be 92 and you'll have 2 opponents so I guess this is ok, but I would think it's closer than I used to think, our sets don't always make a lot of money against competent players.....

[simo_8ball 0]

First hand is close, but probably a fold.Second hand is just wierd. I don't have a problem with preflop, although I would suggest raising a little smaller. Just call the tiny flop c/r.

[donk4life 34]

Am i the only one who folds this pre-flop? I don't quite understand your logic here, you call this player passive, and you believe you can outplay him.. yet he check raised you, and now he's reraising the hell out of you on the flop, yes the raises aren't big, but doesn't that flash a big sign to you that he has a set? You're probably only drawing to a flush here. If i were going to do anything i'd just call his first raise.. and dump it to a big bet on the turn unless you don't improve..

[nogobusto 0]

The converter hates UB.

Smart converter.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Hand #1 is a call, but only slightly profitable.

[linkwood 0]

Am i the only one who folds this pre-flop? I don't quite understand your logic here, you call this player passive, and you believe you can outplay him.. yet he check raised you, and now he's reraising the hell out of you on the flop, yes the raises aren't big, but doesn't that flash a big sign to you that he has a set? You're probably only drawing to a flush here. If i were going to do anything i'd just call his first raise.. and dump it to a big bet on the turn unless you don't improve..

No you're not the only one. I don't mind the raise myself, but its not the preflop action that is the problem. Its the postflop action. Passive players are generally easy to outplay because they will usually tell you when you are beat. This passive player was screaming that he had the best hand, the hero just wasn't listening.