2bthebest 2 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Local casino tournament. I have a very TAG image after the first hour of play by raising every time I enter a pot and taking it pre-flop or standard continuation bet. Current level is 200/400 with 25 ante (8 handed). I am UTG+1(approx 6K in chips) with KK and raise to 1700, folds around to the BB who pushes all in and has me covered.Problem is BB moved from another table at the break, so no reads. Dilemma is this: The weak dealer fumbled the second card dealt enough I was able to tell that he has 1 Ace for sure. Folding leaves me with an M of 7 with blinds soon to hit. Calling makes me chip leader for the table.50 players left, pays top 10, avg was about 4,800 chips. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Wouldn't that be a misdeal, if you saw a card? In any case, I voted for the "cross your fingers and pray he doesn't have another A" option. Link to post Share on other sites
2bthebest 2 Posted May 9, 2006 Author Share Posted May 9, 2006 Wouldn't that be a misdeal, if you saw a card? In any case, I voted for the "cross your fingers and pray he doesn't have another A" option.No, the card was not exposed, just I had the vantage point to the left of the dealer where i was able to see the card as he fumbled it off the top of the deck. Link to post Share on other sites
rog 0 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Well, payout structure and average stack info would help, but I call here most likely. Link to post Share on other sites
2bthebest 2 Posted May 9, 2006 Author Share Posted May 9, 2006 Well, payout structure and average stack info would help, but I call here most likely.Edited to add Link to post Share on other sites
blacktie31 0 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 No, the card was not exposed, just I had the vantage point to the left of the dealer where i was able to see the card as he fumbled it off the top of the deck.I would still consider that a misdeal and you should let the table know you saw the card. If the player was being careless and exposed the card to you I would think that would be different, but since it was the dealers "fumble" that gave you extra information that the rest of the table didn't have I would call it a misdeal.Beyond that folding KK preflop isn't something I spend a lot of time worrying about, even knowing he has one ace, there are only 3 others he could be holding. Anymore he could easily be pushing with AK, or AQs, maybe even down to AT with the way people play today. The other consideration is that the ante's have already kicked in and your M is only 7.5 at the start of the hand counting anties, and closer to 6 if you count only playing 8 handed as opposed to 9. Folding here leaves you with only 4300 which leaves you with about 5 or so laps. I would take my chances with the Kings. Link to post Share on other sites
diamondhead 0 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I think you gotta just take your chances here and call, if your beat by aces so be it. It's very likely he has AK, AQ and a double up will put u in good position stack-wise. Link to post Share on other sites
Shizzmoney 0 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Well, payout structure and average stack info would help, but I call here most likely.Yeah, even though you know he has one Ace, I think you still have to call. As Harrington says, "I am not good enough to fold KK and neither are you", so unless you have some type of uber-read on the guy, you just gotta go broke with it because too often or not he'll have AK, AQ, AJ, or A10.I would have said something about the deal, btw.....because I'd be worried that the dealer would continue the sloppy habits and someone would later on see MY card and I'd let him know of the misdeal as a polite way of saying, "Could ya be alittle more careful?" Link to post Share on other sites
Lil_Hellmuth 0 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Wouldn't that be a misdeal, if you saw a card? In any case, I voted for the "cross your fingers and pray he doesn't have another A" option.It really doesnt matter if the card was completely exposed or not. In this spot I am likely to say that card exposed and the dealer would use that card as the burn card and issue the player another card. In this case, that probably would of been the most beneficial things for you to do.In this instant case, you have to call. If you fold KK preflop what spot are you honestly looking for? If you are on the bubble and you are facing the only other big stack....that is a possibility. In this case there is no option but to call. Link to post Share on other sites
Adam 0 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 IMO, it's too easy for him to have AK, or AQ in this spot.That's usually how those hands are played, just by applying massive pressure preflop.Easy call.If he has aces, bad beat.My question is what would you have done if you hadn't seen that ace and was playing a fair game? (Not saying it's unfair, just I would call it if I were to see another player's card and it was the dealer's fault.) If you hadn't seen one ace, you would've called, right? Link to post Share on other sites
looshle 6 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 It actually is unfair. If you see a card you should let the dealer know.The same kind of thing happened at my casino this week. It was later in the tournament and one guy raises about 1/3 of his stack with AQs and sees the BB is dealt a 2. The BB calls and pushes on a T96 board and AQs calls cause he knows he has a 2. BB had 22 and took it down.If you see a card, use that information, and then get all of your chips in, you deserve to lose. Link to post Share on other sites
Tiltinagain 973 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 IMO, it's too easy for him to have AK, or AQ in this spot.That's usually how those hands are played, just by applying massive pressure preflop.Easy call.If he has aces, bad beat.My question is what would you have done if you hadn't seen that ace and was playing a fair game? (Not saying it's unfair, just I would call it if I were to see another player's card and it was the dealer's fault.) If you hadn't seen one ace, you would've called, right? How would it be a bad beat if you had KK and another player had AA? The other player is obviously a huge favorite pre-flop thus it can't be a bad beat. Bad beat is the most overused, mis-used phrase in this forum IMO. Just sayin'To the OP, first, I agree that you should have told the dealer you saw the card. As mentioned before, you wouldn't want another play to see your card(s) would you?Second, I'd be willing to bet a pay check that 90% of the time (at least) the other player does NOT have AA. Easy call Link to post Share on other sites
2bthebest 2 Posted May 9, 2006 Author Share Posted May 9, 2006 O.K.My thoughts were call 4,300 all in to win 11,100. Second hour of approx 3.5-4 hr tourney, it was time to accumulate chips. I called all-in without hesitation and was shown AA.Not really complaining about bad timing, just wondering what everyone else though knowing he was pushing with at least 1 ace. Link to post Share on other sites
gkunit20 1 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 M of 7 and your considering folding KK? If so, stop playing and go to the kiddie game. Link to post Share on other sites
tallsocksguy 0 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 fold KK preflop...hmmmm....no me gusta.... M of 7 and your considering folding KK? If so, stop playing and go to the kiddie game....this kiddie game you speak of...is it by any chance, down the street??? Link to post Share on other sites
nutzbuster 7 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Local casino tournament. I have a very TAG image after the first hour of play by raising every time I enter a pot and taking it pre-flop or standard continuation bet. Current level is 200/400 with 25 ante (8 handed). I am UTG+1(approx 6K in chips) with KK and raise to 1700, folds around to the BB who pushes all in and has me covered.Problem is BB moved from another table at the break, so no reads. Dilemma is this: The weak dealer fumbled the second card dealt enough I was able to tell that he has 1 Ace for sure. Folding leaves me with an M of 7 with blinds soon to hit. Calling makes me chip leader for the table.50 players left, pays top 10, avg was about 4,800 chips. TSU/MMTry stand-up/ M Mfold KK preflop...hmmmm....no me gusta.......this kiddie game you speak of...is it by any chance, down the street???u too! Link to post Share on other sites
gkunit20 1 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 fold KK preflop...hmmmm....no me gusta.......this kiddie game you speak of...is it by any chance, down the street??? Damn Right!! Link to post Share on other sites
mclark340 0 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 If he had AA would he go all in or let you drive.He obviously feels your 1,700 bet is an over bet (I am assuming little action since you did not disclose) and a display of weakness. With 600 plus antes in the pot you made a significant raise. If he had AA he would have maybe raised to 3,000 or just called.I call! Link to post Share on other sites
TB17 0 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I'm calling faster than Phil Hellmuth with 2 pair vs a set. Link to post Share on other sites
HangukMiguk 8 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 How would it be a bad beat if you had KK and another player had AA? The other player is obviously a huge favorite pre-flop thus it can't be a bad beat. Bad beat is the most overused, mis-used phrase in this forum IMO.cooler is the better phrase to be using in that spot. The cooler is the one hand that can beat you. Link to post Share on other sites
diamondhead 0 Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 ouch tough break vs. AA. Link to post Share on other sites
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