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value bet or check/call?


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A little gunshy ... wasn't sure about this one ...Villian is tight-passive ... 19/4.7/1.5Crypto 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) Preflop: Leaf is BB with [Qd], [Jd]. 3 folds, SB completes, Leaf checks.Flop: [3d], [Th], [Qc] (3 players)SB checks, Leaf bets, Villian calls, SB folds.Turn: [Kh] (2 players)Leaf bets, Villian calls.--> Plan was to bet/call with second pair and the OESD.River: [2d] (2 players)Leaf ... ?I couldn't figure out what a tight player would be calling me down with that I could beat so I was torn between sticking in another bet and hoping I didn't get raised, or check/calling. Thoughts?

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Bet / fold river
Not sure I like that line against a tight passive limping from from MP. I agree that if he raises we are beat, so lets fold there, BUT, if we check, even a tight passive player will sometimes bet the river with a lesser holding than we currently have when we shut down our agression. I don't see too many hands calling us on the river that we can beat from a tight passive, so why bet? Let's check/call IMO...thoughts? 8)
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oh and raise preflopEasey Peasy.
is it really best to be raising a tight passive limper from fairly late position in this case?i would have to think his range of limping hands would be pp's from 66-99, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT and maybe even AT.our QJs is behind a lot of this range.
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Maybe he was calling with an OESD?Bet, worst he can do is raise.
Are these two posts supposed to be tied together? If so, that is terrible advice.If our opponent has an open-ended straight draw that missed, they won'tcall our bet, they will either fold (so we win nothing), or they will raise (trying to bluff us out, and most people would fold to the raise). This guy is passive, so he won't be raising our bet unless we are beat.I still think it is a check/call. 8)
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Maybe he was calling with an OESD?Bet, worst he can do is raise.
Are these two posts supposed to be tied together? If so, that is terrible advice.If our opponent has an open-ended straight draw that missed, they won'tcall our bet, they will either fold (so we win nothing), or they will raise (trying to bluff us out, and most people would fold to the raise). This guy is passive, so he won't be raising our bet unless we are beat.I still think it is a check/call. 8)
Passive players will just check behind you if they missed their hand. By betting you may eliminate a showdown and if he does call it you were beaten the whole way through anyway.check calling isn't a bad play either, but if you check, and he bets, you've lost all agression in the hand and he may get you to lay down the best of it.IMHO both are good plays.What are the results?
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Who cares about the results of this one hand. Run it one million times, and see what is the best way to maximize profits and minimize losses. IMO, bet/call and bet/fold suck in this instance, as I believe check/call is our best bet. 8)

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Who cares about the results of this one hand.  Run it one million times, and see what is the best way to maximize profits and minimize losses.  IMO, bet/call and bet/fold suck in this instance, as I believe check/call is our best bet. 8)
The original OP proposed a question, we've responded now I would like to know how he played it and how the hand turned out. Honestly there's no right answer in how to play this hand. I've check/called the whole way in a hand and just bet the river and taken it down, this may be a play the villian is trying to use. Check/Calling showing some strength then when we check the river, not knowing where we're at in the hand, the villian will bet and represent a strong hand the whole way through, representing a trap. I've done this on many occasions. That's my reasoning on the villians play. He could have a number of hand but only the results will tell.Knowing the results will help everyone because we can see how a conservative player will act during any given hand. If he did have top pair, he check/called all the way down. Now we know that a tight/conservative player will now check/call a weakish hand like TP/TK or an OESD, that is why I would like to know the results.
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The original OP proposed a question, we've responded now I would like to know how he played it and how the hand turned out. Honestly there's no right answer in how to play this hand.
Don't spread that filth in here, sonWang
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The original OP proposed a question, we've responded now I would like to know how he played it and how the hand turned out. Honestly there's no right answer in how to play this hand.
Don't spread that filth in here, sonWang
You tell me the perfect play then.
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The original OP proposed a question, we've responded now I would like to know how he played it and how the hand turned out. Honestly there's no right answer in how to play this hand.
Don't spread that filth in here, sonWang
You tell me the perfect play then.
Good point. "I don't know the answer, and I don't think you know the answer. Therefore, the answer doesn't exist. Yes, I possess all my logical faculties. No, I'm not on drugs. What do you mean that can't be true?I've got a ferret in my trousers!"Wang
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Honestly there's no right answer in how to play this hand.  
There never is, however, there are certainly ways to play a hand that are better than others, and bet/call and bet/fold is clearly not as good as check/call...lol.If raised when we bet, we either fold (to a hand that may be worse than ours), or we call (costing us one bet rather than two to see a showdown), or re-raise (nonsense). Why put ourselves to a tough decision? Checking the river may entice a hand we can beat to take a stab at the pot, to which we will call.Betting for value is trying to get paid off with our better hands, not allowing us to make tough decisions and/or allowing ourselves to get outplayed.
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Honestly there's no right answer in how to play this hand.
There never is, however, there are certainly ways to play a hand that are better than others, and bet/call and bet/fold is clearly not as good as check/call...lol.If raised when we bet, we either fold (to a hand that may be worse than ours), or we call (costing us one bet rather than two to see a showdown), or re-raise (nonsense). Why put ourselves to a tough decision? Checking the river may entice a hand we can beat to take a stab at the pot, to which we will call.Betting for value is trying to get paid off with our better hands, not allowing us to make tough decisions and/or allowing ourselves to get outplayed.
Tuche sir.I play 3/6 at a live at a b&m and play is much looser, maybe my mind set is more on a loose game. With TP and anylizing the hand a little more, I definitly think a bet on the end is not a bad play, but check/calling would work too.Okay, back to work.
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Who cares about the results of this one hand. Run it one million times, and see what is the best way to maximize profits and minimize losses. IMO, bet/call and bet/fold suck in this instance, as I believe check/call is our best bet. 8)
Right on, I am check/calling every time.
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c/c bad.rocket,him being passive is precisely why bet/fold is correct on the river. Every better hand will bet this; so we are losing one bet when we are behind, whether we bet or c/c. However, he won't always bet all the hands we beat. He's passive-ish. If this player raisese the river, 99.6% of the time we are beat. Easy fold.Not betting here will cost you lots over the long run against passive straight forward players.Also, mind you, he is not so passive that he would not often raise a better Q on the flop. He may have K, and if he does, we are losing one bet, whether we c/c or bet. Bet/Fold is the best. AINEC.trust me.

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oh and raise preflopEasey Peasy.
is it really best to be raising a tight passive limper from fairly late position in this case?i would have to think his range of limping hands would be pp's from 66-99, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT and maybe even AT.our QJs is behind a lot of this range.
eh, The pf raise idea was not iron clad. It's just more fun!It gives us fold equity aganist a more TP type opponent and we have a hand that plays very easily post flop. I think call is ok too. Just not as fun.
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c/c bad.rocket,him being passive is precisely why bet/fold is correct on the river. Every better hand will bet this; so we are losing one bet when we are behind, whether we bet or c/c. However, he won't always bet all the hands we beat. He's passive-ish. If this player raisese the river, 99.6% of the time we are beat. Easy fold.Not betting here will cost you lots over the long run against passive straight forward players.Also, mind you, he is not so passive that he would not often raise a better Q on the flop. He may have K, and if he does, we are losing one bet, whether we c/c or bet. Bet/Fold is the best. AINEC.trust me.
I agree with bsaically everything said here. Vs a passive player this is a pretty straightforward value bet.
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oh and raise preflopEasey Peasy.
is it really best to be raising a tight passive limper from fairly late position in this case?i would have to think his range of limping hands would be pp's from 66-99, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT and maybe even AT.our QJs is behind a lot of this range.
eh, The pf raise idea was not iron clad. It's just more fun!It gives us fold equity aganist a more TP type opponent and we have a hand that plays very easily post flop. I think call is ok too. Just not as fun.
agreed, raising rocks! in this situation i was just a little unsure.
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I didn't raise pre because QJ (suited or not) is a problem hand for me OOP.As the hand played, bet/fold would have been the better option as villain checked behind and showed JTo for third pair and a busted OESD.After the session, when I was going over hands, I wondered whether b/f was better since he didn't show aggression when the K hit on the turn. I posted the hand to make sure I wasn't being results oriented in that thinking.Good discussion all ... much obliged!

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