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Quiz Question #2


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Poll: Do you make the call? (0 member(s) have cast votes)

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#21 FrankB

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 08:44 PM

I think this is an easy laydown. If I'm up against a pair, this doesn't seem to be a good position to race. I'm being asked to put in just under 30% of my stack on a hand where one of my cards may be dominated. IE: a pocket pair higher than 9 or an Ace with a better kicker. At best I'm hoping to be up against A-x (lower than 9) or a couple of court cards. The former of which is not likely. I'd rather continue the game with $12,800 in chips and find a better situation to get my money in; especially if the big blind didn't fold (which was not mentioned).

#22 spacemonkey

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 08:52 PM

Fold. Unless you have a good read most players in that situation would only go all-in with a bigger ace or a pair of tens or better. If he had either of those hands you'd be a 3-1 dog and the pot odds are 2-1. It's possible that he could have 88 or below but even then it's 50/50. There's no need to jeopardize a bunch of chips here so that's an easy fold, the real question is what do you do if you had AJ or AQ.

#23 BigBoyBill

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 09:03 PM

:idea: I agree with wilderness that:Luck is a horse you ride like any other but when it comes to this Hold Em'Question I say 70% of luck is Labor Under Corect Knowlegeor L.U.C.K. !Therefore I hereby eat crow and change my mind to FOLD!Tank Ya...aah...Tank Ya very much. Elvis has left the forum for now!lol
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#24 JaysonWeber

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 02:19 AM

Okay, I think there is one thing we all need to consider here... He said A-9 Offsuit! That means that you can hit TWO FLUSHES!!! Even if the other guy has suited cards he can only catch ONE flush!lol allright.. so I'm kidding :D But From what everyone else here has said, Not knowing much about the player... I say fold quite honestly.
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#25 mk

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 03:16 AM

Check out this advice from Dan Harrington's new book (you can read the whole excerpt @ http://www.twoplustw...ngton-v1.html):"Letís look at the issues first. What should you take into consideration when youíre reraised? 1. Your hand. Did you come into the pot with solid values, or were you making a call or raise with a marginal hand for your position?[This is clearly a case of the latter, so we put one point in the fold category.]2. How many players were in the pot? A raise from a player facing only one opponent in the pot is usually less significant than one from a player who has already seen two or more players enter the pot. There are at least four different situations, which must be judged differently. (1) You call the blind. A raise behind you indicates some strength. (2) You raise. A reraise behind you indicates more strength. (3) There is a call in front of you, and then you raise. A reraise behind you indicates even more strength. (4) There is a raise in front of you, and you reraise. Now a reraise behind you represents a real powerhouse. [This is case 2, representing a good amount of strength. 2 points for folding.]3. How many players are yet to act? A reraise from the button or one of the blinds may just be an attempt to defend the blind or foil a steal. A reraise from a player in early or middle position, who faces the possibility of several players yet to act behind him, indicates more strength. [This would generally point us in the direction of calling, but since the SB player went all in, we assume this is not an attempt to foil a steal. One more point for folding.]4. Will you have position on the reraiser after the flop? If the reraiser is one of the blinds, you will act behind him after the flop. You can call with weaker hands than if the reraiser will act after you. [Positional advantage eliminated. 4 points for folding.]5. What are the pot odds? Be sure to calculate the pot odds before making your move. You should be much more willing to enter a pot with good odds rather than bad odds. [The pot is laying us slightly better than 2:1. Not great, but not bad. If we think there's a 32% shot we have the best hand here, a call is correct. And as Sklansky readers know, even 32 off-suit is about a 33% shot against a random hand. However, we're not up against a random hand. We're up against an all-in hand. We'll mark this in the neutral column.]6. How aggressive is the reraiser? A reraise from a conservative player has to be given somewhat more respect than a reraise from a player who plays many pots. But donít press this analysis too far. Many aggressive and super-aggressive players like to steal unopened pots, but their reraises may be quite sound and normal. Until you have evidence that a player will try to reraise with minimal or weak hands, donít be quick to assume thatís the case. [Another point for folding.]7. Whatís the situation in the tournament? If itís early in the tournament, and both you and the reraiser have plenty of chips in relation to the blinds and antes, you want to play more conservatively. You should be much less inclined to get involved in a situation that could knock you out of the tournament quickly. As your stack shrinks and the blinds pressure you more, your willingness to make a big move increases. Those are a lot of issues to weigh. .."[One last point for folding.]So that's 6 points for folding and 1 point in the neutral column. Easy lay down.

#26 JL

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 06:29 AM

It appears the vast majority are in favor of folding, so instead of jumping on the bandwagon, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and call.Why would the SB go all in if he indeed have a monster hand? Wouldn't he flat call and hope the BB came along for the ride? I know it can be a bad move slow playing a huge hand, but when you're low on chips, sometimes it's worth the risk to try and triple up rather than double up. That really would be the deciding factor for me. Just the fact that he pushed the big blind out of the pot would lead me to believe his hand is not as good as he wants us to believe. It's a clear defense of his blind thinking you were on a steal.

#27 Guest_Anonymous_*

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 07:33 AM

I don't think that you can make that call ... many reasons. If you feel he has a decent hand and wants to risk that much he most likely has a pocket pair. If that pocket pair is A-K-Q-J-10 then you're drawing for a A. With offsuit there's very little chance of catching a flush with the A since a flush with a 9 may not be good enough. And you have very little chance of catching four cards for a straight.Anyone agree with me?

#28 offmandh

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 07:35 AM

call it
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#29 JFarrell20

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 10:29 AM

Well I believe you have to call 4000 for an 8500+/- pot. So the pot odds are about 47%. This means that if your hand is a 47% favorite to win, then it is technically an even-money call heads up. So would you rather fold 1200 for nothing? Or call an even-money bet?If your opponent has 8-8 or lower, then you are 47% or better to win. And if he has Ace-8 or lower, then you are in a dominating position. The hands you need to be worried about are AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 10 10, 99, AK, AQ, AJ, A10. This is 10 hands out of a possible 169 hands. This means that you are ahead of 158 hands, and behind 10 hands. Good odds for you, especially since the pot odds are 47% or so. (Daniel didn't mention it, but I'm assuming the BB folded and you are heads up) Also, this is all assuming an average player w/ average chipstack and all that...The answer is easy, Call. You do have to let the cards fight for you once in a while!

#30 jogsxyz

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 11:39 AM

I voted with the minority and called. 5825 in the pot. Getting a little more than 2 to 1 for the money. This is only a super bad call against AA. It's a marginally incorrect call against A with a better kicker and pairs KK thru 99. If I get lucky I can knock a player out of the tourney. Short stacks often get desperate and can easily be playing a small pair or even two randoms. I would be the money favorite or even the actual favorite on this hand.

#31 CodyHartman

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 11:45 AM

I think that folding here should be easy. It is way to early to try and get involved with a marginal hand like A 9o. The pot odds are close to your favor but at best you are drawing to 3 aces. It is too much of your stack to call off so early. Given the $$ in the pot and how much more it would be to call I think the blind would know you would almost be inclined to call and therefore WANT call. I dont think too many people would want to race with A9 so early.Plus who wants to risk another 1/4 of their stack at this point.

#32 cgrohman

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 12:08 PM

Abs0lutely not with the stack size you have. With 5825 in the pot, you are getting roughly 2 to 1 on your money. There are 3 reaosnable hands you could be up against, assuming the player is not putting you on a steal. 1) A Bigger Ace 2) A pair above 9s 3) a Small pair. With options 1) and 2) you are are down 2.5 to 1. Its early in the torunament and the extra 2800 could be used to build your stack later. Let it go.

#33 Munky

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 01:12 PM

JFarrell20 said:

Well I believe you have to call 4000 for an 8500+/- pot.   So the pot odds are about 47%.  This means that if your hand is a 47% favorite to win, then it is technically an even-money call heads up.   So would you rather fold 1200 for nothing? Or call an even-money bet?
When there's 8500 in the pot and it's 4000 to call, his pot odds are about 2:1 That means he's going to have to win the very next time something like this happens. Hand odds are different than pot odds, If he has AK, you only have of about %25 to win. If he's got a pair higher than 9, you still have less than %30 to win.
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#34 HoosierGrady

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 02:51 PM

I understand why everyone says they would fold, but my decision would be based on where I was in the tournament. If it was closer to the end, and I had a chance to knock someone out and I'm holding A9, then I'm in. I understand pot odds and the small blind re-raising appears scary, but towards the end of a tournament, I'd gamble and make the call, hoping he/she thought I was raising because of my position, not my cards.

#35 JoRaff

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 06:28 PM

JFarrell20 said:

Well I believe you have to call 4000 for an 8500+/- pot.   So the pot odds are about 47%.  This means that if your hand is a 47% favorite to win, then it is technically an even-money call heads up.   So would you rather fold 1200 for nothing? Or call an even-money bet?
I think you're wrong here, Farrell.It would only be an even money call if your 4000 was already in the pot. Save your 2800, don't draw with A9o with the chance of bringing your opponent to around 8225 and yourself down to 10 000. You have a nice stack, let's keep it that way.

#36 IGOTBULLETS

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 06:30 PM

A,9 suited or unsuited is a hand i feel comfortable with. I've had it quite a few times in my games and have had pretty good luck. So i would say i would call him. If i win i would be chip leader and then take a deep breath and continue playing.

#37 JoRaff

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 06:33 PM

HoosierGrady said:

I understand why everyone says they would fold, but my decision would be based on where I was in the tournament.  If it was closer to the end, and I had a chance to knock someone out and I'm holding A9, then I'm in.  I understand pot odds and the small blind re-raising appears scary, but  towards the end of a tournament, I'd gamble and make the call, hoping he/she thought I was raising because of my position, not my cards.
I don't know if I agree with your late-tourny move here, Hoosier.In tournament play, it's not your objective to knock out players. What you want to do is gain as many units as you can. Keep your opponents in the game so they can keep feeding you units, keep some lower stacked players in to give the higher-stacked players more competition. And if you find this utterly opposite to your strategy, you have to agree that if you're in the late stages of a tourny with a decent stack, why risk a nice lead with A9o?

#38 KingAustin

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 07:20 PM

[quote name='"HoosierGrady"I don't know if I agree with your late-tourny move here' date=' Hoosier.In tournament play, it's not your objective to knock out players. What you want to do is gain as many units as you can. Keep your opponents in the game so they can keep feeding you units, keep some lower stacked players in to give the higher-stacked players more competition. And if you find this utterly opposite to your strategy, you have to agree that if you're in the late stages of a tourny with a decent stack, why risk a nice lead with A9o?[/quote']I dont know if I agree with your tourney play at all. Why would you want to keep a low stack in? They arent dead money, all you need is a chip and a chair. Keeping a low stack in when you can take them out is a cocky play.I would call him, same reasons that other people have said.
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#39 Wilderness

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 07:40 PM

KingAustin said:

I dont know if I agree with your tourney play at all.  Why would you want to keep a low stack in?  They arent dead money, all you need is a chip and a chair.  Keeping a low stack in when you can take them out is a **** play.I would call him, same reasons that other people have said.
Doubling up a short stack when you have bad odds to win and aren't getting pot odds isn't a good play at all. Of course you want to take the short stack out, but in this hand where you extremely likely to be behind isn't the the time to do it.And for the person who said they'd call because they've had good luck with A-9 before? Come on, you can't play superstisiously (probably spelled that wrong) because it only hurts you in the end. You need to base your decision on this hand and this oppoenent and I think its a pretty obvious fold.
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#40 jogsxyz

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 09:43 PM

JoRaff said:

In tournament play, it's not your objective to knock out players.  
This statement flies against what was shown on ESPN. In the 2003 WSOP Moneymaker was knocking out players left and right. In the 2004 WSOP everytime the short stack said all-in, Raymer said, "I call."To the poster who thought calling and losing would double up the small blind.If you fold the chips are 12800 to 5825.Call and lose: 10000 to 8625Call and win: 18625 to ZERO.It just seems unlikely the sb would only play AA-99 pairs and only AT or better kicker. If the sb plays lower pairs or lower kickers, the pot odds swing quickly in favor of calling.Even if the sb only played the premium hands the tourney odds may favor calling. Winning this pot will put you in good position to win the tournament.




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