73o, Tried To Re-steal And Hit Bottom 2 On A Scary Board

[XXEddie 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (2 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Button (t1630)Hero (t1370)Preflop: Hero is BB with 7 , 3 . Button raises to t60, Hero raises to t140, Button calls t80.Flop: (t280) 3 , T , K (2 players)Hero bets t180, Button calls t180.Turn: (t640) 7 (2 players)Hero.....checks???Comments on all streets expected.This was the 10th hand or so and he had always raised the button, and i had foled every other time, this time i decide to play back at him. I think my raise should been more around 180-ish look back though. On the flop i decide to c-bet figuring If he oesnt have a diamond, it'll be hard for him to call unless he had a good King, a set, maybe AT...i dunno.So the turn i spike bottom 2...I think a check is right? Or should I lead again. What if i lead and he shoves... What if I check and he fires a huge bet...bleh. What if i check and he fires a weak bet of like 250-300. I dunno, i was lost here.I should just folded preflop to avoid the headache of this hand

[Poker Addict 0]

Let me start by saying, my HU game needs quite a bit of work - I've been told I am too aggressive. So I obviously like this play.I'm thinking a bigger raise preflop is probably in order. He calls thinking you are trying to re-steal after he has been getting you to fold all those straight hands. You cbet that flop. What's wrong with leading that turn? If he called with a flush draw or QJ, can we get him to lay it down or just get some more money in the pot? This is a spot where I also get in trouble. Especially with a passive post-flop player just calling my bets in position.

[Sheiky 0]

Yeh, fold pre, there are numerous reasons why but i think it's pretty simply fold pre.C-bet i don't mind but i'd probably just check, check/Raise all in on the turn beats everything else imo.

[gobears 0]

I fold pre - if he's raising the button everytime, you can find a better hand to raise him back with.On the turn, I'd check if I was pretty sure that he'd bet and then put him all-in. If he's the type to check behind, I'd probably bet 400 and of course hope that a diamond doesn't fall on the river if he calls.

[XXEddie 0]

Yeh, fold pre, there are numerous reasons why but i think it's pretty simply fold pre.C-bet i don't mind but i'd probably just check, check/Raise all in on the turn beats everything else imo.

I honestly dont wanna hear this, no offense. I guarantee you(and 99% of players at FCP) have re-raised someone headsup from the BB with trash once in your life.

[Aces Rule 0]

I honestly dont wanna hear this, no offense. I guarantee you(and 99% of players at FCP) have re-raised someone headsup from the BB with trash once in your life.

If your villian has always been raising you off the hand a lot preflop (and it's only been 10 hand so it up to 10 times) and I figure it's time to play back I could do it two ways - your way by re-raising pf or with that hand my way - by just calling and leaing out regardless off what flops. Playing back in HU matches does not have to be a re-r if your opps is being very aggressive hand after hand. Believe me a call can be just a threatening as a re-r! Your match is still early so you can establish a little respect by pushing back some but don't risk a lot of chips with trash hands - better to trap him with a really good pp or strong flop by leting him bet off his chips to you.However in this hand - you made your bed and now it's time to lie in it - you have 2 pair with a flush draw (posssibly already made) and 2 over cards of which one may alreaady be paired. Bad time for a free card imo!

[Sheiky 0]

I honestly dont wanna hear this, no offense. I guarantee you(and 99% of players at FCP) have re-raised someone headsup from the BB with trash once in your life.

Er, so?

[copernicus 0]

I would probably fold this 60% of the time, flat it 20% and reraise 20%, influenced of course by how aggro hes been.If it was the 20% of the time that I reraised and he called I would probably check/call a reasonable bet on the flop, and push the turn. As played I push the turn as well, looking to double up against a K, shut out a single diamon and not too worried about a flopped flush.

[TrueAce13 18]

If your villian has always been raising you off the hand a lot preflop (and it's only been 10 hands so he's up to 5 times) and I figure it's time to play back I could do it two ways - your way by re-raising pf or with that hand my way - by just calling and leaing out regardless off what flops. Playing back in HU matches does not have to be a re-r if your opps is being very aggressive hand after hand. Believe me a call can be just a threatening as a re-r! Your match is still early so you can establish a little respect by pushing back some but don't risk a lot of chips with trash hands - better to trap him with a really good pp or strong flop by leting him bet off his chips to you.However in this hand - you made your bed and now it's time to lie in it - you have 2 pair with a flush draw (posssibly already made) and 2 over cards of which one may alreaady be paired. Bad time for a free card imo!

Yeah, how played, I'm going with this hand now and praying that a diamond doesn't hit the river. IMO

[BeaverStyle 1]

Yeah, how played, I'm going with this hand now and praying that a diamond doesn't hit the river. IMO

I dunno, the 7 of diamonds would be sexy.

[Sheiky 0]

I would probably fold this 60% of the time, flat it 20% and reraise 20%, influenced of course by how aggro hes been.If it was the 20% of the time that I reraised and he called I would probably check/call a reasonable bet on the flop, and push the turn. As played I push the turn as well, looking to double up against a K, shut out a single diamon and not too worried about a flopped flush.

We're talking about PF?Are you nuts? You're flatting with 73o 20% of the time? Do you like money?

[TrueAce13 18]

I dunno, the 7 of diamonds would be sexy.

Tu Shay.

[copernicus 0]

We're talking about PF?Are you nuts? You're flatting with 73o 20% of the time? Do you like money?

Yes, I love money, and heads up is the strongest part of my game. Its critical to mix up your pre-flop play when the stacks are deep, and everything in the early stages is post flop play. I dont mind taking a longshot flyer 20% of the time because most HU players are going to give them right back when they are on the button anyway. and when you do hit one it cripples them for the rest of the tourney...as this one would.

[Danny Dingleberry 0]

i think i would check the flop. abort the steal. either your opponent doesn't like folding or he has you on the flop... so betting out here probably won't take it down very often. as played, I would check/shove the turn, or if he checks behind and it blanks, check/shove the river. other wise check fold to diamond/t/kit's possibly he shows up with top two or flush every now and then but i think this is more than likely going to be a pair or fd.

[Sheiky 0]

Flatting a raise OOP with 73o is just plain bad, whatever the contexdt and reasoning you try to justify it by, it's just horrible. i seriously cannot believe that someone with 5k posts on a poker forum truly believes otherwise, heck i couldn't believe if someone with 20 posts who's been playing for 7 days would believe otherwise.

[copernicus 0]

Flatting a raise OOP with 73o is just plain bad, whatever the contexdt and reasoning you try to justify it by, it's just horrible. i seriously cannot believe that someone with 5k posts on a poker forum truly believes otherwise, heck i couldn't believe if someone with 20 posts who's been playing for 7 days would believe otherwise.

Sounds like its time for a HU challenge, lol.

[TrueAce13 18]

I have been playing a lot of HU sng's, could you go more in deepth of the justification of flatting PF. I know with mixing it up PF with different hands, but with 73o, can't we pick a better spot?

[Sheiky 0]

Sounds like its time for a HU challenge, lol.

4ROLLZ?

[simo_8ball 0]

OMG. Never call preflop here. Calling is absolutely horrendous. It's not close. I don't see how it's even possible to think about calling there. If you think calling is profitable you should be calling with 100% of your hands.Don't give me any of that "range balancing" crap because it's a poor justification of a bad play. It is an incredibly huge leak to think otherwise. Cop, I don't doubt that you're a good HU player. If you really think calling here can be correct you aren't as good as you could be.The 3-bet size preflop is bad. He's rarely folding. I'd pop it to ~$200 or I'd fold. I'm 99% fold though. Just fold your trash hands. If you want to 3-bet him light, do it with a hand like 89o. Something that, if called, can catch top pair or can make a draw.I'd usually bet/call the turn, but I don't mind a check shove if you think he'll bet a wide range. I'm happy to get my money in here.

[copernicus 0]

I have been playing a lot of HU sng's, could you go more in deepth of the justification of flatting PF. I know with mixing it up PF with different hands, but with 73o, can't we pick a better spot?

Note I said only deep stacked. Its an implied odds and game control play.A good button HU is going to try and raise you 30-40% of the time. If you limit your calling range to hands that are +EV against that range your're going to get nickle and dimed to death with him winning the blinds uncontested 75% of the time or more. You also get predicatable and he can back off whenever you play and he doesnt have a real hand. 73o is 30% against that range overall, and youre getting 2:1 immediate odds, not that short to start with. Most of that equity is on the flop when you hit a pair or better and it doesnt cost you any more than the 2bb. So youre spending/losing 2bb 70% of the time, and say 6bb 10% of the time (when you hit but he plays back at your 3/4 pot lead and you have to back off the flop). Thats a 2bb loss. 20% of the time you pick up at least 4 bb, and you need to average 10bb or more to break even. When stacks are 40+ bb deep, You can pick up an extra 4 bb out of the 6 needed pretty often because the hand is so deceptive. Then there are going to be the two pair and trips hands when you can pick up far more than the 6bb breakeven, including stacking him for the 40bb now and then.This hand is a perfect example of that. Of course if you reraise PF you pick up fold equity plus additional deception for the extra investment.Obv Im not going to play like this against a known calling station, who will pay you off on your good hands when you have them, you can nit it up and steal him blind. Against a good aggro player though, I think the metagame implications of showing down a win with garbage pays huge dividends.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Note I said only deep stacked. Its an implied odds and game control play.A good button HU is going to try and raise you 30-40% of the time. If you limit your calling range to hands that are +EV against that range your're going to get nickle and dimed to death with him winning the blinds uncontested 75% of the time or more. You also get predicatable and he can back off whenever you play and he doesnt have a real hand. 73o is 30% against that range overall, and youre getting 2:1 immediate odds, not that short to start with. Most of that equity is on the flop when you hit a pair or better and it doesnt cost you any more than the 2bb. So youre spending/losing 2bb 70% of the time, and say 6bb 10% of the time (when you hit but he plays back at your 3/4 pot lead and you have to back off the flop). Thats a 2bb loss. 20% of the time you pick up at least 4 bb, and you need to average 10bb or more to break even. When stacks are 40+ bb deep, You can pick up an extra 4 bb out of the 6 needed pretty often because the hand is so deceptive. Then there are going to be the two pair and trips hands when you can pick up far more than the 6bb breakeven, including stacking him for the 40bb now and then.This hand is a perfect example of that. Of course if you reraise PF you pick up fold equity plus additional deception for the extra investment.Obv Im not going to play like this against a known calling station, who will pay you off on your good hands when you have them, you can nit it up and steal him blind. Against a good aggro player though, I think the metagame implications of showing down a win with garbage pays huge dividends.

Nice post. And I'd shove bottom two in that specific spot.EDIT: (can you imagine the "player notes")

[Acid_Knight 2]

Note I said only deep stacked. Its an implied odds and game control play.A good button HU is going to try and raise you 30-40% of the time. If you limit your calling range to hands that are +EV against that range your're going to get nickle and dimed to death with him winning the blinds uncontested 75% of the time or more. You also get predicatable and he can back off whenever you play and he doesnt have a real hand. 73o is 30% against that range overall, and youre getting 2:1 immediate odds, not that short to start with. Most of that equity is on the flop when you hit a pair or better and it doesnt cost you any more than the 2bb. So youre spending/losing 2bb 70% of the time, and say 6bb 10% of the time (when you hit but he plays back at your 3/4 pot lead and you have to back off the flop). Thats a 2bb loss. 20% of the time you pick up at least 4 bb, and you need to average 10bb or more to break even. When stacks are 40+ bb deep, You can pick up an extra 4 bb out of the 6 needed pretty often because the hand is so deceptive. Then there are going to be the two pair and trips hands when you can pick up far more than the 6bb breakeven, including stacking him for the 40bb now and then.This hand is a perfect example of that. Of course if you reraise PF you pick up fold equity plus additional deception for the extra investment.Obv Im not going to play like this against a known calling station, who will pay you off on your good hands when you have them, you can nit it up and steal him blind. Against a good aggro player though, I think the metagame implications of showing down a win with garbage pays huge dividends.

Let me interject some HU cash game perspective here:1. You're not that deep. 100 BB stacks are not really deep at all honestly either, and we don't even have that. In a tournament sense, yeah, having over 50BBs is deep, but in the grand scheme of things, you have very few post flop options and usually need to make a hand or risk most of your chips bluffing.2. Fold preflop or 3 bet. Calling should never be considered with a hand this weak. The blinds are not high and it's not hard to wait for a stronger hand like 89o to defend. 73o is just a piece of trash and should be thrown away. 3. It's still early in the match and you say you've folded every other time he's raised. You probably shouldn't 3 bet a total trash hand the 1st time you decide to play a hand against him because he surely realizes that you've seen him raise every hand and that you're not giving him a lot of credit, so he knows that your range will be wider, so you should counter that by playing a relatively stronger hand against him OOP.4. For God's sake, don't 3 bet him that small. You're OOP and you have trash. Make him pay for it if he wants to play against you. 180 min, 210 is better.5. I would c/f the flop a lot here. This is the 1st hand that you've 3 bet and he called. You have bottom pair and any hand that he has against you surely has a ton of equity. Add into that the # of times that he flats your bet and you're left to see a turn with bottom pair, no kicker and no clue whether he's got a better made hand than you or a draw or whatever and then you have to start guessing in a bloated pot.6. As played, just bet like 3/4 of the pot on the turn and call a shove. With 2 pair, there's no turning back here now.7. Also, I think that 3 betting him on the 5th consecutive button open with garbage is much worse than 3 betting him with garbage on the 1st or 2nd button open. By now, you just look frustrated.Copernicus - I think you make fair assumptions but the math is bad imo. We lose a lot of $$ with this hand because we can't hit flops that hard and we wind up paying off his bets way more often than he'll pay ours off since we're going to be outkicked or just not flop anything the vast majority of the time. It's not like we can cooler him on a 7 high flop like if we had A7 vs his 78. If he shares the pair that we flop, which will rarely be top pair, we're always outkicked. Yeah, he misses flops too and we pick up pots when he whiffs, but you really really want to have a hand that flops better than 73o before you start investing 5% of your stack with a hand this bad flatting preflop raises.Cliffs Notes: Folding preflop is correct here by a large margin. If you're gonna 3 bet, make it a larger amount that encourages him to fold. C/F the flop because he has a better hand and/or draw too often and you're gonna be OOP and guessing as to which on the turn. As played, bet/call turn.

[copernicus 0]

Let me interject some HU cash game perspective here:Copernicus - I think you make fair assumptions but the math is bad imo. We lose a lot of $$ with this hand because we can't hit flops that hard and we wind up paying off his bets way more often than he'll pay ours off since we're going to be outkicked or just not flop anything the vast majority of the time. It's not like we can cooler him on a 7 high flop like if we had A7 vs his 78. If he shares the pair that we flop, which will rarely be top pair, we're always outkicked. Yeah, he misses flops too and we pick up pots when he whiffs, but you really really want to have a hand that flops better than 73o before you start investing 5% of your stack with a hand this bad flatting preflop raises.

I agree in a cash game the flatting is a poor option. I don't in a tournament setting. (I also think you meant the assumptions are bad and the math is good, and the assumptions are very different cash vs tourney).

[Acid_Knight 2]

I agree in a cash game the flatting is a poor option. I don't in a tournament setting. (I also think you meant the assumptions are bad and the math is good, and the assumptions are very different cash vs tourney).

You're arguring that being deeper, you have higher implied odds, which make this a better proposition. I'm saying that you're not that deep and even in a 100BB cash game, this is a fold because 73o does NOT have the implied odds to be making this call preflop..

[copernicus 0]

You're arguring that being deeper, you have higher implied odds, which make this a better proposition. I'm saying that you're not that deep and even in a 100BB cash game, this is a fold because 73o does NOT have the implied odds to be making this call preflop..

I didnt explain well why you do have implied odds with even 40bb stacks in a HU tourney, and it has less to do with the current depths of the stacks themselves than the differences between tourney vs cash.In HU tourney play hands that would never call the river if it were BvB in a multiplayer tourney call when its HU. Thats why so many draws are played HU that wouldnt be played BvB...they get paid off so much more often that they do have implied odds. The mindset in HU tourney play is to play TPTK (and sometimes a lot less) like it is the nuts, because you dont have time to pass on them and wait for another opportunity as the blinds go up. That lowers the stack depth needed to achieve implied odds.In HU tourney play the deciding hand (not the last hand) is almost always a pre-flop cooler (KK v AA) or a set/other long shot drawing hand vs TPGK or even 2d pairTK that cant lay down vs the push and wait for a better spot.BvB you dont have the blind pressure nearly as much as HU because they only come around 1/9 of the time instead of 1/2 the time, so you dont have the same effect on implied odds ... you can wait for a better spot. (along with the SB being OOP the rest of the hand BvB, so fewer hands should be played).