Qq Limp Re-raised, Play Along

[nomad_monad 0]

Reads: none really. Villain sat down about a couple orbits ago, has raised a couple of times and taken down flops uncontested. Overall, table playing somewhere in between passive/aggressive. Some open limps, but not a ton.Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Ultimate-Bet Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Button ($219)SB ($227.20)BB ($268)UTG ($207.90)Hero ($225.1)Preflop: Hero is MP with Q, Q. UTG calls $2, Hero raises to $9, Button calls $9, 2 folds, UTG raises to $18, Hero calls $9, Button calls $9.Flop: ($57) 8, T, T(3 players)UTG bets $51, Hero...? So I realize I made a mistake here by not 4-betting and thus let button come along for cheap (while at the same time, missing out on a chance to get some more visibility against UTG). But I'd like comments on postflop. When we flat call the LRR, are we committed to only playing for set value here? Or do we consider that UTG's LRR range could be wider, meaning our hand has some showdown value, so we should flat the flop because so many action-freezing cards can arrive? Not to mention, there are a lot of hands we could potentially rep if the board comes right - is the combination of QQ showdown value & bluff potential worth it? But is that a bad idea with button still left to act?

[AcesOnFire 0]

Any stats on UTG here?

[nomad_monad 0]

Any stats on UTG here?

Never played with him before - no stats

[whiterice714 0]

i think floating w/ intention of possibly repping scare cards is bad idea simply based on stack sizes...

[nomad_monad 0]

i think floating w/ intention of possibly repping scare cards is bad idea simply based on stack sizes...

by itself, yeah. but that's if we think our hand has no showdown value.what i'm wondering is if our hand has enough residual showdown value combined with marginal float potential to make it worth continuing, and then betting if checked to. or if we basically need to consider this a binary problem, i.e. try for a checkdown or fold.

[NoBBiR 0]

Without reads I'd dump it.

[Willing 2 Die 0]

Thats a strange limp re-raise. If you're going to continue wiht the hand, i would shove the flop. Its a tough hand to get away from at 6 max, especially against an uknown.

[pokerinc 0]

very bizzarre line that implies a lot of strength AND an opponent that plays like garbage and will be stacked in a better situation for you.That said you can fold and crush him later.

[Zach6668 513]

very bizzarre line that implies a lot of strength AND an opponent that plays like garbage and will be stacked in a better situation for you.That said you can fold and crush him later.

The bolded part is irrelevant to this specific hand.

[nomad_monad 0]

The bolded part is irrelevant to this specific hand.

"That's irrelevant" - a much gentler, kinder "fail"Since you're up, care to comment on the hand?

[Zach6668 513]

"That's irrelevant" - a much gentler, kinder "fail"Since you're up, care to comment on the hand?

I would, but honestly, it would make you a worse player to read it.I 4-bet preflop, raise/cap the flop, call down from the turn if he leads into me, or else I bet/call down.I can't play overpairs in NL when they might be behind.

[AimHigher 0]

Never played with him before - no stats

I find it really hard to believe anybody would limp re-raise with kings or aces six handed. Especially if it is not a particularly aggressive table. But then he is leading out for the pot with two people behind him. What would you consider the button's range to be? he has to have a fairly reasonable holding to be coming in with the action pf.

[Willing 2 Die 0]

I find it really hard to believe anybody would limp re-raise with kings or aces six handed. Especially if it is not a particularly aggressive table. But then he is leading out for the pot with two people behind him. What would you consider the button's range to be? he has to have a fairly reasonable holding to be coming in with the action pf.

Agreed. Its not very common people do this, and even if he does have AA, i'm still puzzled by the weak min-raise PF.

[TraptSteve 0]

Agreed. Its not very common people do this, and even if he does have AA, i'm still puzzled by the weak min-raise PF.

I've seen this before in a nearly identical situation; the logic is the preflop raiser has a big hand, he'll have to put in a large third bet. As a matter of fact, the action preflop was exactly the same, except that I shoveled when it got back to me (~30 BB's left in my stack).As for this hand, I think you could argue that floating this would give approximately the same info as 4-betting pre.... only with this line, we have the benefit of seeing more cards cheaper than if we ended up AI pre.Now QMFT :)Edit: Oh yeah, no repping scare cards... please

[nomad_monad 0]

k, thanks for the replies.a few things - a LRR 6-handed with premium pockets happens a lot more than you'd think - i am never pushing this flop - nothing's calling me except AA-KK, or a set that the button hit - i thought folding and calling might be close, but maybe folding is way better

As for this hand, I think you could argue that floating this would give approximately the same info as 4-betting pre.... only with this line, we have the benefit of seeing more cards cheaper than if we ended up AI pre

Well, we wouldn't be going AI pre - we'd 4bet to ~30 and fold to a shove. We're mostly *not* doing it for info against UTG - we'd be doing it to get this heads up and kick out the button. But the side benefit is that we'd get a bit more info on UTG. Hand plays differently though in that we could have the lead on the flop, but because of stacks & the pot size, any bet commits us, which could be real bad.

[nomad_monad 0]

So I called.Turn: ($159) 7(2 players)UTG checks, Hero checks.River: ($159) A(2 players)UTG checks, Hero...?Are we still reluctant to rep scare cards here? This board is straight nasty. I think AK & KK fold here a lot. Only AA calls - and the chances of AA just went down.Or do we just go ahead and check it down, hoping he has QQ-99?

[Acid_Knight 2]

Preflop is a definitely 4 bet, especially when the button has called your initial raise.The whole idea of LRRing at a 5 handed table seems insane to me, so I don't know what to put him on. Also, he bets into 2 opponents on the flop and he bets solidly so he likely has something decent.That being said, you still have the button to act after you. If you put any money in on this flop and the button continues, you're probably in a lot of trouble vs his hand, let alone we're still unsure about UTG's hand.I think I let this go here. Not 4-betting preflop was a pretty big mistake 5-handed IMO, but if we ever get any action here, we're drawing to 2 outs almost all of the time. I think that the button's presence behind you makes this a fairly straight forward fold. I think that folding here is a much smaller error than continuing with the hand will be.

[Acid_Knight 2]

So I called.Turn: ($159) 7(2 players)UTG checks, Hero checks.River: ($159) A(2 players)UTG checks, Hero...?Are we still reluctant to rep scare cards here? This board is straight nasty. I think AK & KK fold here a lot. Only AA calls - and the chances of AA just went down.Or do we just go ahead and check it down, hoping he has QQ-99?

He very likely has JJ or even the other QQ and maybe 99. I think that betting as a bluff is silly and it's hard to get any value now that the A has fallen. I guess there's a good chance of AK showing up here as I'd play it just like he did. I just don't think he's folding a better hand unless he's got KK, and he's not playing KK like that so just check and hope that you show down the winner.

[nomad_monad 0]

He very likely has JJ or even the other QQ and maybe 99. I think that betting as a bluff is silly and it's hard to get any value now that the A has fallen. I guess there's a good chance of AK showing up here as I'd play it just like he did. I just don't think he's folding a better hand unless he's got KK, and he's not playing KK like that so just check and hope that you show down the winner.

If you got shoved on here, how often would you fold AK?Why do you think he wouldn't play KK like this?

[Acid_Knight 2]

If you got shoved on here, how often would you fold AK?Why do you think he wouldn't play KK like this?

I'd fold AK like always, but I'm not the villain The answer to that question for the villain here is: not as often as you'd like.I just think KK bets the turn here. Your comment leads me to believe that's what he had.

[Dictius 0]

Limp reraising with JJ+/AK happens all the time at $10NL 6max.I don't think there is any value in betting the river, I can't think of one hand to get value from or any better hand that will certainly fold.

[nomad_monad 0]

I'd fold AK like always, but I'm not the villain The answer to that question for the villain here is: not as often as you'd like.I just think KK bets the turn here. Your comment leads me to believe that's what he had.

Yeah - I checked behind and that's what he had.I was sort of surprised too. I thought he would've bet the turn as well. But then maybe it's not so bad to check KK there. What's he beating at that point that's likely to still be in the hand? JJ-QQ, AcKc, random club draw. Are they calling another bet? Maybe. But also, my hand range isn't quite so narrow here given that villain basically min-limp-re-raised, so I can easily have 88, J9, Tx, and even AA. He might have thought this was mostly WA/WB and decided to go for pot control OOP.I was pretty sure he didn't have AA once he checked the turn and another A fell on the river. When I saw what he had, it got me wondering if he folds AK/KK here about 1/2 the time to a shove (that's about a PSB), which is all it would take for this to be break even. I guess your answer is: still less than 1/2?

[nomad_monad 0]

Limp reraising with JJ+/AK happens all the time at $10NL 6max.I don't think there is any value in betting the river, I can't think of one hand to get value from or any better hand that will certainly fold.

River bet would never be for value.Sure, there isn't a better hand that's certain to fold.AA is snap calling, but I think he has it here almost never.AK/KK only need to fold about 1/2 the time to a PSB.

[Dictius 0]

I don't think AK is ever folding to a PSB, KK might, not enough times to be profitable though.

[nomad_monad 0]

I don't think AK is ever folding to a PSB, KK might, not enough times to be profitable though.

AK from this villain, or AK in general? Because if you mean the latter, no way.You do realize the board is showing trips, a str8, and a flush all at once, right?