1/2 Nl Live. Jj Against Weird Action. Deep

[Dubey 1,035]

stacks:button 165UTG+1 500Hero 750Hero has J J in MP.UTG raises to 10, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises to 45, folds to button, button calls 45. UTG fold. UTG+1 raises to 100 (huh?) Hero calls, button callsFlop 3 5 8 Button anounces preflop that her last 65 is going in on the flop no matter what.UTG+1 checks, hero checks, Button bets 65 (all-in), UTG+1 calls, Hero ???Reads:Button is a spewtard. she's here with her 80-year old sugar daddy who is playing the 10-25 pot limit game and she has already burned through at last 5-6 buyins in less than an hour. her range is any two 'playable' cards. (any 2-gappers or less, suited 3-gappers any 2 cards above an 8, any pair)UTG+1 is a little wierd. He is mostly loose passive. very sticky but hasn't shown down many hands. We have played 2 reasonable pots against eachother. 1st time he limped, called my raise, and check called all the way down including a river all-in. board was A47KA, I had AK, he mucked. 2nd time he raised to 10 preflop, I called with KJs. flop kxx, he bet 20 on flop, 40 on turn, and I folded to 100 on the river. he showed AQs for a bluff. Thing is though, this is the only other time in 3 hours that he had raised preflop at all.Comments on all streets are welcome. I tanked for a few minutes preflop, honestly considering folding and also contemplating shoving, but decided to take a flop and reevaluate. His line is really weird here, and considering his previous lack of disposition for raising at all, I have trouble putting him on a hand.

[Daemon10 0]

I think he has AK AQ maybe AJ, perhaps 1010 99...I dunno though, Id just flat call.

[LJB723 0]

You obviously have button's range crushed. UTG+1s line is tres odd. It could be KK or AA that was going to be slowplayed but liked the fact there was action so went for the (almost) min-reraise, or it could be a horribly played AK.After UTG+1's flop call the pot is $443 and villain has $345 back. I put him in. I think we'd face a turn-bet from a villain showing a willingness to 3-barrel, and I would hate to see an overcard on the turn after we flatcall so put him in to extract max-value from his AK, AQ, 99, TT and avoid the tough decision.

[mikednuts 0]

I think he has AK AQ maybe AJ, perhaps 1010 99...I dunno though, Id just flat call.

I play pretty nitty on the 1/2 tables, but I really think this is KK or AA a high percentage of the time. The important question is what your table image has been like. You've got a big stack for 1/2 so I'm assuming you've been playing pretty aggro. If so, there's a good chance he was counting on you popping it with any reasonable hand after he flatted the utg raise. He got the spwetard on the button on then put in the raise to keep you and spew in the hand. With AK I'd expect a bigger rasie to at least shut you out.On the flop he knows she's all in and that's a great flop for AA and KK and after you flatted his raise on the flop he's probably put you on exactly what you have which is JJ or QQ, maybe TT or AK. Either way his flat is begging for you to ship it in for him to instacall. I'd flatcall or, and I'll probably get lit on fire for this, what about a little minraise? Online it's spewy, but at these tables it can be surprisinlgy useful. The buttons in so we only have to worry about utg+1. He should be sitting on about 300-350 so repopping it will either get another raise from him which will let us dump it or he'll dump his AK and leave us heads up. If he's as tight as it seems and we have a LAG image it could even freeze AA or KK into a turn check for a free card. But then again, I'm an idiot.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I think UTG's range is any overcards to this flop and AK AQ. Sure, there's AA and KK and with this villain he may even fold QQ to a shove here. There are literally no draws he's flatting with here, so his range tightens up some in my mind. We're raising OR folding not raising AND folding. Additionally, there's no value in flatting UTG with JJ here. None at all. I think we flopped with JJ planning that if we saw exactly this kind of flop, we should intend to ship. Which we probably should do. I just don't have good enough of a read on UTG from this post to say. Quick question: beside a J, name a turn card we like? Our value with upper middle PP hands like this is so much higher preflop and on the flop, that I just think preflop and on the flop are the places where we need to GET the value. So we put the chips in. Maybe I'm not saying that right. But I think we need to get chips in.

[Dubey 1,035]

I'd been playing pretty aggresive, opening a lot of pots, but hadn't been reraising preflop very often, certainly not often enough for the villain to flat call expecting a reraise from me. Button had been very aggro so I suppose he could have been counting on her to repop it.

[Javery17 0]

I play pretty nitty on the 1/2 tables, but I really think this is KK or AA a high percentage of the time. The important question is what your table image has been like. You've got a big stack for 1/2 so I'm assuming you've been playing pretty aggro. If so, there's a good chance he was counting on you popping it with any reasonable hand after he flatted the utg raise. He got the spwetard on the button on then put in the raise to keep you and spew in the hand. With AK I'd expect a bigger rasie to at least shut you out.On the flop he knows she's all in and that's a great flop for AA and KK and after you flatted his raise on the flop he's probably put you on exactly what you have which is JJ or QQ, maybe TT or AK. Either way his flat is begging for you to ship it in for him to instacall. I'd flatcall or, and I'll probably get lit on fire for this, what about a little minraise? Online it's spewy, but at these tables it can be surprisinlgy useful. The buttons in so we only have to worry about utg+1. He should be sitting on about 300-350 so repopping it will either get another raise from him which will let us dump it or he'll dump his AK and leave us heads up. If he's as tight as it seems and we have a LAG image it could even freeze AA or KK into a turn check for a free card. But then again, I'm an idiot.[/quoteI'm not sure he can define our hand so specifically, I really don't think that he has us pinned down to those 2 hands exactly. That being said I think AA and KK are in his range but there are a couple hands in his range that we beat. Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 368,280 games 0.016 secs 23,017,500 games/secBoard: 3c 5s 8dDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 41.944% 41.94% 00.00% 154470 0.00 { QQ+, TT-99, AQs+, AQo+ }Hand 1: 58.056% 58.06% 00.00% 213810 0.00 { JJ }I'd push it. His check/call on the flop seems strange. and I agree there are so many turn cards that we hate and the pots big enough that I'd probably be getting it in on that flop.

[Footballguru 0]

honestly i think I would lay this down preflop. I personally rarely 3 bet with a hand like JJ, since I always want to take a flop. The way I look at it is that if no one has anything and I re raise I win 20$ or w/e. I am risking 45 to win 20. if they have something better they can either smooth call or re pop like he did. I doubt many people are putting in 100$ preflop with a weak hand. I dont want to put in 20% of my stack preflop without having any idea of where I am in the hand. As played, I think you have to push hoping its AK. There is just too much money out there to fold at this point, with a legitimate chance you are ahead.

[mtdesmoines 3]

honestly i think I would lay this down preflop. I personally rarely 3 bet with a hand like JJ, since I always want to take a flop. The way I look at it is that if no one has anything and I re raise I win 20$ or w/e. I am risking 45 to win 20. if they have something better they can either smooth call or re pop like he did. I doubt many people are putting in 100$ preflop with a weak hand. I dont want to put in 20% of my stack preflop without having any idea of where I am in the hand. As played, I think you have to push hoping its AK. There is just too much money out there to fold at this point, with a legitimate chance you are ahead.

you can improve on rarely 3 betting JJ IMHO

[Footballguru 0]

you can improve on rarely 3 betting JJ IMHO

I have thought about this alot with QQ and JJ. Online is definitely different, my 3 bet range online is extremely large. However, in live poker, the 3 bet is much more tricky. When you 3 bet with JJ what do you really accomplish? You either win a tiny pot of 20$ in this case, or get called. If you get called, you are in a tough spot. A decent player can smooth call with AA or KK heads up. If you get 4 bet you generally have to fold, and it is definitely possible the 4 better could have AK. If the flop comes 9104 you really have no idea where you are. I dunno, I prefer to keep the pot small preflop with JJ. obviously if there are 4+ callers of the inital raise, a re raise is needed. But 2 or 3 handed I prefer to just keep it small preflop, make my check raise on a low flop to see where I am, as oppsosed to pre flop.

[DonkSlayer 1]

With my reads on the players who got involved before I did preflop, I may smooth-call here a lot more often than reraise. Reraising to me just bloats the pot against 2 players who seem easy to read and have both done something that points toward them at least calling my raise and going into the flop with $150 already in there. That's a big pf pot to play with JJ.

[sactownjoey 0]

Thing is though, this is the only other time in 3 hours that he had raised preflop at all.

Isn't this the information that is most relevant here? He flats the original raise then min 4-bets? I don't think this is worse than QQ-AA, AK ever with a generally loose-passive player. I expect on the KJ hand you cited if you had raised him on either the flop or turn he would have folded so I don't give him aggression credit there for c-betting and you playing passively.Then he is flatting the donk's $65 allin on the flop, making no attempt to push you off the hand. He knows this is going to showdown and he doesn't seem to care what you have.I would have been done when he 4-bet pf and I am probably done on the flop.But I have been accused of seeing monsters everywhere. This one, to me, walks and quacks like a duck so...

[suicideking 0]

Shh-Shhhh-Shhhiiiii-SSSSSShhhhhhhhiiiiiippppp it in.

[suicideking 0]

I should elaborate.Your decision was made preflop. When you called the 4 bet, were you hoping for an A/K/Q to flop so you could easily fold? A J so you could fist pump? This is a perfect board for your hand. If he has you beat, so be it.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Ugh, man, this is so ugly. theres so many things running through my mind at once i'l try and make some sense with my post.- You should be re-raising, like you did. I like the re-pop to 45. however a few unexpected things occured. you have someone smooth calling with position, and the original raiser folded. and the 1st smooth caller, now re-raised to 100.The re-raise to 100 is so friggin retarded because its only 55 more after a re-raise and flat. I mean, you would know the guy better than I do, but this could be a big PP, that was trying to disguise his hand previously, and now that there is a re-pop and call, he decided to re-re-raise, perhaps hoping you'll make another raise.Or, it could also be AK trying to find out exactly where he is at, if you Dont re-raise. he might put you on AK,AQ QQ,JJ,10,10. (but i dont knw how you guys have been viewing each other)with all that in mind, you need to make up your mind. you are deep stacked. I like flat calling and then proceeding on the flop (depending on set or no set)but if you do flat, like you did.. (regardless of the bittch you says shes all in for 65. ) You should be betting the flop when checked too. especially that flop.what i see happening, is he checks, knowing the bitch will fire, you also check knowing this, she fires, he flats, with what could be anything from AA-10,10 AK,AQ.If i was you, once he checks the flop, i'd fire about 180. she goes all in for 65. then it all depends what happens next.with better reads, I might just throw away JJ after te re-pop to 100.. The dumb lady with only 65 left could potentially move all in at that point, just because you said she has a sugar daddy, so you have to start thinking, are you investing 55 more to see a flop, or could it become a sloppy mess?