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So Convince Me I Was Greedy

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#1 oldfriendbear


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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:49 AM

10c/20c home game. $20-$50 buy-in, 8 handed. 6 handed for the mentioned hand. Fairly friendly but competent players. Social alcohol present, nobody's spewey drunk (yet). All players in their 20s, most with families and have stable but not great paying jobs. No pros at the table. Not too much bluffing or aggression for that matter. The table usually doesn't take into account how much is in the pot, so I see myself going to the river the most and "drawing out" because the pot-odds are there due to the comparitively small bet. No 3 bets post-flop for the entire night, again. The game isn't having the usual winners win, the donaters are both up $50-120, and one recently left the table with a decent profit.The other donater has said he is about to depart. There is usually $400 or so on the table, the usual winners take home $30-100 profit, losers lose $50-100. Usually more losers than winners.Villan: $38.50, in for $120. (75/0/1) He's stuck after losing KK vs QQ and AJ vs J9 straight over straight. I don't like having this guy to my left. Competent beginner, aggressive but mostly against me because he knows I bet a lot with air (not true for this night but true for most other nights). History wise, we were both playing in the same cash game with a max buy in of $30 that night. We both had about $120 in front of us. I squeezed to $3 on a straddled pot from SB, got called by 3 ppl including the villian. Flopped top pair, bet pot, called. Turn blank 3/4 pot bet, called. River 3/4 pot, he insta-shoves. I folded, he said he had the 2nd nuts (wheel) but I don't really believe him.Hero: $55, in for $90. Known to be a serious player while others are getting better but more recreational. Topped up to max buy in after losing a small-ish pot twice. The top offs did get a few odd glances, as nobody re-buys unless they go broke. Haven't been to the river in a while. Both times I've gone to the river I paid off a drooler(one of the departing donators) because he bet so small. I think the table has gotten used to my post-flop advantage that they don't call my flop bets without something decent. I've heard from two separate players that "I'm trying to trap" no sure what to make of that statement.(15/10/1)6 handed ($.10/$.20):4 limps in front of hero.Hero in the SB: :5c :tsVillain in BB checks. ($1.20)Flop: :club: :ts :3hHero bets $2.50BB quickly calls.Everyone else folds. ($6.20)Turn: :4hHero bets $7.00Villain raises to $14.00After a 5 second ponder, hero calls $7.00 more. ($34.20)River: :2sHero checksVillain reluctantly checks (M&%$FU%"!!)Hero shows the nuts, villain mucks what he said that was KJ.1. Should I have squeezed pre-flop to $2-ish? The table average is like (70/5/0.5) so barely any 3 betting but a whole lot of calling, especially towards the villian's and my raises usually in the 3.5BB-6BB area. I would have been called in at least 3 spots. I don't really like squeezing with these types of hands, I'd much rather have a SC or PP. I'd be OOP in a bloated pot but...2. The reasoning for my turn bet/call: So I have the nuts, I want the rest of his stack, He has a strog hand that can raise that turn. If I 3 bet here wouldn't it kind of turn my hand face up? Since I'm out of position I'll call here and give him a chance to bluff at the river. I had him on AQ, non-flush draw but TPTK with a gut shot. He's limped with premiums like these before. I would have played A-rag about the same way, until the turn raise. I'm not sure which seems stronger, the 3-bet here or the call here.The reasoning for the river check: He has less in his stack than the size of the pot, it's pretty much an all in or fold situation. No flush/straight draws got there, so valuebetting $10 or so into $34.20 pot makes my hand look too strong. I prolly would have raised pre if I had any PP that made a set other than 22. I gotta give him another chance to bluff/VB at this decent sized pot, not sure what he has me on but going off that call on the turn has to put me on a draw right? WAS I TOO GREEDY HERE? I think the simplest play here would be 3b shove the turn, and is it OK if he folds on the turn? I ended up profitting the same as played as if he folded to my 3b, but likelihood of him committing more I think is way higher the way I played.3. How would you play it/ play in general against beginners? All comments/discussions welcome, I'll do some math when I can. I'm not sure if I'm overestimating the villian's poker abilities,mid-20's, married, out of shape, likes to wear metal band T-shirs, has gone to vegas once and lived in CA where he went to casinos there but not often. Can't shuffle chips but doesn't act out of turn... HELP!

#2 Stupidhead


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Posted 15 May 2012 - 08:56 AM

It's a pretty easy jam on the turn. He can't have pure air after calling the flop so letting him bluff is kind of pointless.Almost all hands that he can ever be bluffing with will be pair and or straight draw+flush draw type hands that will not want to fold. And if he has something like AQ with the intention of folding to a 3bet, he's not betting the river either.Your flop and turn bets are pretty massive (2.50 into 1.20 and 7 into 6.20). I like betting $1 on the flop and then $3 on the turn but if people are calling overbets like this with speculative holdings then I don't mind your bet sizing. But the fact that he's continuing means that he can't hate his hand. After his turn raise he only has $22 left, pot is $34, jamming is pretty much the only option.

#3 tonyholes


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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:06 PM

I agree with Stupidhead partially. If he means jam after you are raised on the turn, then I fully agree. I like the $7 bet and you had to love his raise, but just calling there I don't like.Here are my thoughts for shoving once you are raised.He has postion and his stack might just be enough to get you off the hand if one of the flushes were to hit and/or the board pairs. By shoving you most likely take the pot down at that moment and don't have to sweat the river bet (if the flush or paired board hits). If he calls, you got your money in with the nuts and and he is way behind.And...I can also see him calling your shove with 2 pair and the river still to come. Which you should love because you are so far ahead with like 90% to his 10% or less. Even if he was lying and had a flush draw you are still way ahead like 70-30. I love the shove after his raise no matter what he is holding.I don't see a decent player or better betting into you on the river after you led out on the flop and turn and basically insta-called his raise and then checking the river. Smells like trouble. :)My two cents...but you got a couple streets of value with flopping the nuts. Nice job!I wouldn't ever say anyone is greedy when trying to get max value out of any hand especially the nuts.

#4 answer20


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Posted 23 May 2012 - 10:56 AM

Image is everything!! You think you would have had at least 3 callers to your pre-Flop action ... so that means they think you open light, right? That certainly puts Q-10 into that range and it would be an ok spot to raise pre-Flop knowing you can follow up with a c-bet. So for point 1, sure you could have bumped based on the information you have given. If this was not a play you made often, then you get very little more money out of this Flop, even from this Villian who may put you on AK and moves along slowly, if at all after this Flop. Certainly in this case here, you probably made more money (or the same ... $6 extra pre vr $7 raise) by not bumping. I would have checked the Flop if I had bumped trying to use my wide bump range to my advantage and maybe get a bet out of the 5 others in the hand.I think with such a draw heavy board (strt, double flush) and the fact that he only had 'less than pot' behind you needed to jam the Turn as he is unlikely to bet (or call) the River unless he boats up ... especially if a flush hits (50% chance) or if a 10 or Q hits either. He is not priced in with 'just' two pair, but if he had shown one of the flush draws, then at least you got your money in while ahead if he had hit the River. Greedy? By no means here on the Turn and especially not on the River. A shove on the Turn might not mean strength to him with the double flush out there ... what does he think you have is way more important than you knowing you have the nuts trying to get him to act on his holdings. What do you do if the flush hits the River, especially a diamond?I would have bet out $7 on the River ... just to tease him. He may have folded anyway, but that would have left him with 1/2 a buy-in behind if he calls and could induce the shove you want now that you have seen the blank River card. Plus the added fact that if he folds you don't have to shown your 'luck' to his bad luck. He is stuck, you are stuck ... most any player, even a beginner will know that people play light when they are stuck ... so play the part for him. You could even shove the River against a lot of players after 'missing your flush' and trying to push them off the pot. Two pair was probably strong enough to get a call there and they are proably not going to bluff at a player who over-bet the Flop, over-bet the Turn and then just called a raise to get to the River.As far as beginners, they love when you do the betting for them so in this case it would have been a good line to take with a c-bet on the Flop and his min-raise on the Turn prices pretty much everything into calling it. Which shows that this guy didn't know the size of the pot ... or does he know that the min-raise is a probing bet? Give him answer by shoving over the top since he will probably not be calling too many River bets without boating up first!! Goood Luck ...

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