Cutoff Vs. Bb

[TeeSludge 0]

Here are important facts:11 players remaining, I am currently 2nd place in chips. I have chipped up to this position by raising 2-3x each orbit and taking down pots pf. I won one race with AK vs. 66 just prior to this hand. The villain in this hand is the only player at the table who seems to have some knowledge of tournament play and has been the only other aggressive player at the table. He recently lost a decent sized pot all in pf when he pushed AQ vs. AJ. My standard raise has been 2.5 to 3 times the blind. PokerStars Game #6273582780: Tournament #31810010, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level XI (600/1200) - 2006/09/13 - 16:59:29 (ET)Table '31810010 6' 9-max Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 1: Tremomey (33062 in chips) Seat 3: XX (20368 in chips) Seat 4: XX (18685 in chips) Seat 5: XX (9907 in chips) Seat 6: Villain (13583 in chips) Seat 8: XX (22306 in chips) Seat 9: XX(8656 in chips) Tremomey: posts the ante 75XX: posts the ante 75XX: posts the ante 75XX: posts the ante 75Villain: posts the ante 75XX: posts the ante 75XX: posts the ante 75XX: posts small blind 600Villain: posts big blind 1200*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Tremomey [As 9c]XX: folds XX: folds Tremomey: raises 2035 to 3235XX: folds XX: folds XX: folds Villain: raises 10273 to 13508 and is all-inIf I fold I have 30k.If I call and lose I have approximately 20k which is about an avg. stack with an M of 9 or so. If I call and win I have approximately 47k which is good for about a 10k chip lead. Thoughts?

[Actuary 3]

call.you're getting almost 2:1your better than that against his range

[copernicus 0]

call.you're getting almost 2:1your better than that against his range

This may be fairly close to a Neutral EV call, but with a solid stack I dont want to take the risk of dropping back to average.I would also fold preflop. A9 from MP is not good enough, even at a tight table.

[simo_8ball 0]

I like the preflop raise. Copernicus is far too tight - if you were one seat to the left you would be the CO, and this would be a mandatory raise. You can't go from definite raise to fold in one seat.Regarding the allin:You need 36% equity against his range. You don't have that much equity even against a loose range of [ 77+, A8s+, A8o+, KQs ]. Fold.

[copernicus 0]

I like the preflop raise. Copernicus is far too tight - if you were one seat to the left you would be the CO, and this would be a mandatory raise. You can't go from definite raise to fold in one seat.Regarding the allin:You need 36% equity against his range. You don't have that much equity even against a loose range of [ 77+, A8s+, A8o+, KQs ]. Fold.

mandatory raise? with these stacks? nonsense

[simo_8ball 0]

You wouldn't raise from the cutoff with A9? That is almost the definition of standard.

[copernicus 0]

You wouldn't raise from the cutoff with A9? That is almost the definition of standard.

first, the notion of "standard" without consideration of stacks and table characteristics is meaningless to start with.second, for a play that you think is "almost the definition of standard", Cloutier/McEvoy classify playing Ace/mid in late positions as "almost throwing your money away", Phil Gordon puts A9 on the borderline between MP and LP, DB classifies A9o as a trash hand, only playable in exceptional circumstances, E-dog plays almost any two cards from LP, but doesnt play A9 from MP, Howard Lederer recommends mucking it from LP.Doesnt sound like "almost the defintion of standard" to me even from LP, and your contention that a hand doesnt go from fold to raise based on one position is far too definitive...it may or may not.In this hand 4 out of 6 of your opponents are behind you, and your chip lead cannot stand a reraise. I have no problem folding this at all.

[shpaget 0]

first, the notion of "standard" without consideration of stacks and table characteristics is meaningless to start with.second, for a play that you think is "almost the definition of standard", Cloutier/McEvoy classify playing Ace/mid in late positions as "almost throwing your money away", Phil Gordon puts A9 on the borderline between MP and LP, DB classifies A9o as a trash hand, only playable in exceptional circumstances, E-dog plays almost any two cards from LP, but doesnt play A9 from MP, Howard Lederer recommends mucking it from LP.Doesnt sound like "almost the defintion of standard" to me even from LP, and your contention that a hand doesnt go from fold to raise based on one position is far too definitive...it may or may not.In this hand 4 out of 6 of your opponents are behind you, and your chip lead cannot stand a reraise. I have no problem folding this at all.

I agree with copernicus 100% here.If I'm raising with A9 here it's because I feel like stealing (and, if it's a live game, a peak downstream has given me a read that they'll likely fold), and in that case I can do that without even looking at my cards.I'm not raising with A9 here because of its inherent "value".And yes, as played I fold to the reraise.

[TeeSludge 0]

I was raising A9 here not on the strength of A9 itself but on the fact that everyone had consistently been folding to my pf raises. This is only the second time someone came over the top and the previous time I had AK vs. his 66 and won the race. I was raising hands much worse than A9 prior to this and would have easily mucked most of those hands. His range is very wide. I'd give him any pocket pair, A8-AK, KJ-K10, and a few other complete resteal hands. I've been thinking about this hand a lot and I think because the pot odds are so close plus the range of hands he may have, the decision rests upon where I would stand based on the outcomes.Call and lose= 20k a little below avg stack.My M would be cut to about 9 plus the fact that we are on the final table bubble and the tables are shorthanded so my adjusted M would most likely be around 7 I think if my math is correct. Not in horrible shape but not exactly where I was before.Fold= 30k stackWith a 30k stack I still have room to steal and more manuevering room and will probably make the final table.Call and win= 48k stack and 10k chip lead plus eliminate tougher opponent I think with a 48k stack in this tournament and ten players remaining I put myself in a position to win the tournament. There are 270k chips in play. Going to the final table with the big stack would allow me to continue to raise a lot of pots or sit back if the table gets wild. I thought thru this hand a lot since that tournament and after thinking about these factors I think I made the right decision to call. I'll show results in bit in case anyone cares.

[simo_8ball 0]

first, the notion of "standard" without consideration of stacks and table characteristics is meaningless to start with.

I'm talking generic situations. Reasonable blinds, no huge stacks, no desperate shortstacks, no extreme playing styles at the table. I would say that if it gets folded to the cutoff, I would in most cases raise with A9.It's like me saying open raising with queens is standard. In most cases that is the correct play.

second, for a play that you think is "almost the definition of standard", Cloutier/McEvoy classify playing Ace/mid in late positions as "almost throwing your money away", Phil Gordon puts A9 on the borderline between MP and LP, DB classifies A9o as a trash hand, only playable in exceptional circumstances, E-dog plays almost any two cards from LP, but doesnt play A9 from MP, Howard Lederer recommends mucking it from LP.Doesnt sound like "almost the defintion of standard" to me even from LP, and your contention that a hand doesnt go from fold to raise based on one position is far too definitive...it may or may not.

/shrug. I don't think I could bring myself to fold A9 if we were in the CO here. In this situation being CO+1, I think it's still a raise, but I can see how you could 'consider' folding. With a pot of 2325 I think this is definitely worth trying to take.Oh, and all I mean is that it's hard to go from a definite raising situation to a definite fold by adding just one extra player. I'd like to see a situation where you feel that isn't true.

In this hand 4 out of 6 of your opponents are behind you, and your chip lead cannot stand a reraise. I have no problem folding this at all.

What are your raising requirements from CO+1?

[Actuary 3]

I learned a lot.I think you can put any two broadway in there and more than just A8.Any pair too.He only has an M~5 in BB.Copernicus sure reads a lot and knows a lot about what pros say they do.It's a challenge to figure what applies to the stakes we play.

[TeeSludge 0]

I learned a lot.I think you can put any two broadway in there and more than just A8.Any pair too.He only has an M~5 in BB.Copernicus sure reads a lot and knows a lot about what pros say they do.It's a challenge to figure what applies to the stakes we play.

BTW, if this matters at all this is a 20+2 180 man SnG. The BB is the only person at the table who has shown any knowledge of good tournament poker. The rest of the table have literally let me walk all over them.

[copernicus 0]

I'm talking generic situations. Reasonable blinds, no huge stacks, no desperate shortstacks, no extreme playing styles at the table. I would say that if it gets folded to the cutoff, I would in most cases raise with A9.It's like me saying open raising with queens is standard. In most cases that is the correct play./shrug. I don't think I could bring myself to fold A9 if we were in the CO here. In this situation being CO+1, I think it's still a raise, but I can see how you could 'consider' folding. With a pot of 2325 I think this is definitely worth trying to take.Oh, and all I mean is that it's hard to go from a definite raising situation to a definite fold by adding just one extra player. I'd like to see a situation where you feel that isn't true.What are your raising requirements from CO+1?

Ok, we agree that its your definition of standard, not any advice that Ive been able to find yet anyway!My raising requirement from CO+1 in a 7 handed, fairly tight table when Im the chip leader would be more like AJ+, A9s+, 99+. I might limp or min-raise at the lower end of those which is what E-dog and Cloutier/McEvoy also say they would consider.Raising vs folding with one player behind added? I dont think A9o is a definite raise from any position except the blinds with these stacks.However, if you want to call CO a mandatory steal situation, moving to CO+1 moves stealing to a definite no-no (which is what I consider A9o here). With 3 players behind and considering pot odds and a fairly tight table, you might get a fold 50-60% of the time (assuming 10%, 15%, and 20% calls for each position you are at 60% folds, and those are pretty tight ranges, especially if they suspect a steal). 60% folds is a break even proposition, assuming you will fold to a reraise...hardly mandatory, but I agree most people would at least consider a steal from the CO with A9. Add another player and you might drop that to 45% to 55% folds, given the extra player but some tightening of ranges for the earlier raise. You are now clearly in -EV territory.If a smaller raise would elicit the same % folds then it could be a consideration again, however that is highly doubtful. The antes already make folding to a 3x raise problematic for the BB. Lower that any significant amount and you increase the chances of having to play the hand as an underdog or fold to a raise.Actuary...I havent memorized all those recommendations, I did have to go back and look at them! Ive assimilated them into my own set of pre-flop strategies which are always evolving. A9o hasnt been in there as a value raise since TPFAP, the first tourney book I read, though.

[Actuary 3]

yeah, I'm more passive preflop with hands like A9.so, it was only the decision after the push that I was commenting on.

[TeeSludge 0]

Ok, we agree that its your definition of standard, not any advice that Ive been able to find yet anyway!My raising requirement from CO+1 in a 7 handed, fairly tight table when Im the chip leader would be more like AJ+, A9s+, 99+. I might limp or min-raise at the lower end of those which is what E-dog and Cloutier/McEvoy also say they would consider.Raising vs folding with one player behind added? I dont think A9o is a definite raise from any position except the blinds with these stacks.However, if you want to call CO a mandatory steal situation, moving to CO+1 moves stealing to a definite no-no (which is what I consider A9o here). With 3 players behind and considering pot odds and a fairly tight table, you might get a fold 50-60% of the time (assuming 10%, 15%, and 20% calls for each position you are at 60% folds, and those are pretty tight ranges, especially if they suspect a steal). 60% folds is a break even proposition, assuming you will fold to a reraise...hardly mandatory, but I agree most people would at least consider a steal from the CO with A9. Add another player and you might drop that to 45% to 55% folds, given the extra player but some tightening of ranges for the earlier raise. You are now clearly in -EV territory.If a smaller raise would elicit the same % folds then it could be a consideration again, however that is highly doubtful. The antes already make folding to a 3x raise problematic for the BB. Lower that any significant amount and you increase the chances of having to play the hand as an underdog or fold to a raise.Actuary...I havent memorized all those recommendations, I did have to go back and look at them! Ive assimilated them into my own set of pre-flop strategies which are always evolving. A9o hasnt been in there as a value raise since TPFAP, the first tourney book I read, though.

Do you factor into this the fact that we are close to the final table bubble and the fact that the CO, button and SB will only come over the top with AK, AQ and probably 88+?BTW the result from this hand, not that it matters much... Dealt to Tremomey [As 9c]XX: folds XX: folds Tremomey: raises 2035 to 3235XX: folds XX: folds XX: folds Villain: raises 10273 to 13508 and is all-inTremomey: calls 10273*** FLOP *** [Ks Kc 7c]*** TURN *** [Ks Kc 7c] [7h]*** RIVER *** [Ks Kc 7c 7h] [Jh]Tremomey said, "nh"*** SHOW DOWN ***Villain: shows [8s 8d] (two pair, Kings and Eights)Tremomey: shows [As 9c] (two pair, Kings and Sevens)Villain collected 28141 from potI ended up getting it all-in with 1010 vs. AK for a 30k pot about 3 hands later and busted 11th.

[copernicus 0]

If you are putting them on that tight a range to reraise (and they fold otherwise) then steal from any position. Thats about 6% of all hands, and with 6 opponents you'll get folds 70% of the time. Ive never seen a table that tight with blinds/antes this big, especially from the blinds. Just putting you on a steal 15% of the time opens up resteal + value reraises that make a raise breakeven.

[CoranMoran 0]

You have a big stack.You have pretty good control of the table.You are 2 off the button.Not open raising with A9 would be weak under these circumstances.As long as you can get away from this hand when you need to, you should be in good shape by being aggressive.After the reraise, I feel that your decision is very read dependant.If you can see BB moving all in with a weaker hand than yours (KQ), then a call is logical.Without a read, I probably fold this and wait for other chances to continue my aggression.--CM

[TeeSludge 0]

If you are putting them on that tight a range to reraise (and they fold otherwise) then steal from any position. Thats about 6% of all hands, and with 6 opponents you'll get folds 70% of the time. Ive never seen a table that tight with blinds/antes this big, especially from the blinds. Just putting you on a steal 15% of the time opens up resteal + value reraises that make a raise breakeven.

I'm not sure how to quantitatively assess how tight they were but put it this way.. From the time we had 20 players until we had 11 players which was about 40 hands I went from 10k to 33k with only winning one showdown which was about an 8k total pot.

[TeeSludge 0]

I'm not sure how to quantitatively assess how tight they were but put it this way.. From the time we had 20 players until we had 11 players which was about 40 hands I went from 10k to 33k with only winning one showdown which was about an 8k total pot.

Also, just looking back at this hand history. We played exactly 41 hands in that time period. I raised 14 of them pre-flop. I was called twice from the blinds and took the pot down with a c-bet both times. I raised at this table pretty much any time it was folded to me.. any time I didn't raise it was because there was already action in front of me. I'm certainly raising A9 here without a doubt given this statistics and I think it makes the call even more justifiable if this particular player is a thinking player at all. His stack size is just about perfect for a re-steal if I had any one of the crappy hands I had been raising with prior to this.

[jjgoldy5 0]

Also, just looking back at this hand history. We played exactly 41 hands in that time period. I raised 14 of them pre-flop. I was called twice from the blinds and took the pot down with a c-bet both times. I raised at this table pretty much any time it was folded to me.. any time I didn't raise it was because there was already action in front of me. I'm certainly raising A9 here without a doubt given this statistics and I think it makes the call even more justifiable if this particular player is a thinking player at all. His stack size is just about perfect for a re-steal if I had any one of the crappy hands I had been raising with prior to this.

Thats exactly why I DONT call here.If you aggression is leading to consistent accumulation of chips, why risk falling into push / fold territory with your stack?

[simo_8ball 0]

Thats exactly why I DONT call here.

It is also why you should raise preflop.

[TeeSludge 0]

Thats exactly why I DONT call here.If you aggression is leading to consistent accumulation of chips, why risk falling into push / fold territory with your stack?

I understand your point but my point was that his hand range is a bit wider because of the fact that I'd been raising so many hands. So this makes a hand like A9 a little stronger than normal.

[Sefaje 0]

holy crap, how is this even debatable? raise, fold.you say the table is letting you steal like crazy, great. no reason to call here and be up against a better ace or only have one overcard. you're basically at best 60%, MAYBE he could have a weaker ace. doubtful. you say he knows something about tournstrat so prob not.i fold and continue to steal. you have more to lose by calling than you can gain by calling. accumulating by steals is all about folding when you get played back at and moving on to steal more later.

[jjgoldy5 0]

Not to mention, if you double up a smart player you are damaging your equity even further.I think a stealing capable stack of 30k is worth about 40k realistically because of your flexibility. You have to take some races to win tournaments realistically, so I do not hate a call here, I just think that you are behind more often than not, and you do not lose much by folding here.

[Actuary 3]

holy crap, how is this even debatable? raise, fold.you say the table is letting you steal like crazy, great. no reason to call here and be up against a better ace or only have one overcard. you're basically at best 60%,

so the fact we are getting 2:1 is meaningless?you know how many steals you need to make up for that?

Not to mention, if you eliminate a smart player you are helping your equity even further.

true.