Qq Preflop, Partypoker $55 Sng

[AcesUp46 0]

Here's a hand that I've been thinking about for a while. I had posted it in my blog for a few days. Just wanted to gather more opinion from you guys.No Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: t30/t60UTG: t2030UTG+1: t2660UTG+2: t1580MP1: t2215MP2: t1740MP3: t2195CO: t1860Button: t1465Hero: t1850BB: t2405Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is SB with Q♥ Q♦ UTG raises to t225, 6 folds, Button raises to t615, Hero ????.This hand is entirely about the range of hands that I assign to the UTG raiser and button reraiser. The loosest ranges that I can assign are UTG -> {88+,AQs+,AQo+} and button -> {TT+,AKs,AKo}. With this range I only have an equity of 38.1% against both of them, just 5 points better than average. Since the equity edge that I am pushing is just 5% and we're only in the 2nd level of the SNG, I think it is correct for me to fold this hand and find a better spot later on. I would need to loosen the range to UTG -> {66+,AQs+,AQo+} and button -> {TT+,AQs+,AQo+} before my equity edge becomes sufficient enough for me to push.Also, I'd like to add that I had no read on both players since I was 6-tabling and it was only the 2nd level of the SNG.

[simo_8ball 0]

I agree that folding is most likely correct.

[Actuary 3]

as a side note: your equity is really that low with the ranges given? also keep in mind that UTG can fold, lowering your EV if he held JJ- I see this as QQ+ a lot here for Button. 99-JJ/AK/AQ would just put it all in if they are going to raise that muchIn my $33, 6 Man, I'd probably call.$55, 10 Man, we fold

[copernicus 0]

I dont see a problem with calling and seeing if an A or K flop. If they dont, push, otherwise fold. Eliminating AK and AQ from those ranges helps tremendously. If you get reraised preflop youve still got an equity edge.

[Actuary 3]

I dont see a problem with calling and seeing if an A or K flop. If they dont, push, otherwise fold. Eliminating AK and AQ from those ranges helps tremendously. If you get reraised preflop youve still got an equity edge.

I really don't see AK/AQ raising that much w/o pushing.I'd push now or fold.

[copernicus 0]

I really don't see AK/AQ raising that much w/o pushing.I'd push now or fold.

He cant raise much less and still not offer good odds to the blinds. It is an awkward stack, but I wouldnt push in position. Id rather play it for more value, and if I have to fold 850 isnt a terrible stack to fight back from.

[Actuary 3]

He cant raise much less and still not offer good odds to the blinds. It is an awkward stack, but I wouldnt push in position. Id rather play it for more value, and if I have to fold 850 isnt a terrible stack to fight back from.

I am squeezing a bit more value out of my hands these days thanks to you.Last night I had AK in 1st pos early in 6 Man.Raise. Called. by both blinds onlyK on flop cheked to me. I bet 2/3 pot and they folded.Next hand Button and SB limp (fomer callers last hand).I push all in with QQButton calls with A6s$33 buy in.works better the more hands you've recently taken down on the flop with a bet, imo. But yeah...not really applicableps. Blinds don't call 200t + just for decent odds, do they? I don't

[copernicus 0]

ps. Blinds don't call 200t + just for decent odds, do they? I don't

Depends on how decent and whether the hand has potential (suited connectors for example), although the stacks are so thin all around its hard to say, since implied odds are hard to come by. And you know im a liberal defender.

[AcesUp46 0]

I dont see a problem with calling and seeing if an A or K flop. If they dont, push, otherwise fold. Eliminating AK and AQ from those ranges helps tremendously. If you get reraised preflop youve still got an equity edge.

No, calling is out of the question. No way am I committing 1/3rd of my stack and then folding on the flop when an Ace or King appears.Also, it may be possible that initial UTG raiser may reraise all-in and with button already committing half his stack, he is most likely to call. Now, with 2 all-ins in front of me, do I also call all-in?? If YES, then I'm better off pushing all-in now in order to maximize whatever fold equity I have against UTG raiser and thus, try to get heads up with the button. If NO, then I'm better off folding and preserving my stack.If I was able to gets heads up with the button reraiser and I assign him a range of {TT+,AQs+,AQo+}, it would actually be +cEV for me to shove and get called by the button with his stated range. However, the difference in chips is very slight, thus, I passed this +cEV opportunity to preserve my stack and wait for another spot.

[copernicus 0]

No, calling is out of the question. No way am I committing 1/3rd of my stack and then folding on the flop when an Ace or King appears.

35% of the time (that your call goes unraised) you give up on 1/3 of your stack, 65% of the time you turn an equity coinflip into a 3:1 edge for 1/3 to all of your stack. That seems to be a lot better than your pushing edge, even if you get it heads up.

[Actuary 3]

35% of the time (that your call goes unraised) you give up on 1/3 of your stack, 65% of the time you turn an equity coinflip into a 3:1 edge for 1/3 to all of your stack. That seems to be a lot better than your pushing edge, even if you get it heads up.

how?AK calls your post flop push?TT/JJ maY fold post flop too.AA/KK won'tbeing more of a favorite and winning more chips is two different things.

[copernicus 0]

how?AK calls your post flop push?TT/JJ maY fold post flop too.AA/KK won'tbeing more of a favorite and winning more chips is two different things.

Thats why I said 1/3 to all of your stack...you may not win more chips...though the 3:1 favorite is too high..I was thinking one caller. But lower it to 65% and youre still net + with a call even if you get no more chips.

[AcesUp46 0]

35% of the time (that your call goes unraised) you give up on 1/3 of your stack, 65% of the time you turn an equity coinflip into a 3:1 edge for 1/3 to all of your stack. That seems to be a lot better than your pushing edge, even if you get it heads up.

I can understand your argument if I know for sure that I can get the pot heads up with either player. Problem is, I don't. As I had stated earlier, there is the real possibility that initial UTG raiser might reraise all-in and I may then face a 3-way all-in situation.Also, your idea sounds a lot like a stop and go, however, if UTG calls the raise, then I won't have the first in vigorish on the flop for the stop and go.

[Wingman008 0]

Even though having 850chips isn't the worst that could happen, i would still say push or fold. With a fold being more of what I would lean towards.If you get it all in and they have AA/KK. So be it. If they don't, you're ahead.On the other hand, if you fold, you have many more chips to play with.

[copernicus 0]

I can understand your argument if I know for sure that I can get the pot heads up with either player. Problem is, I don't. As I had stated earlier, there is the real possibility that initial UTG raiser might reraise all-in and I may then face a 3-way all-in situation.Also, your idea sounds a lot like a stop and go, however, if UTG calls the raise, then I won't have the first in vigorish on the flop for the stop and go.

If you face a 3 way allin situation, you are just back to where you were equity wise if you pushed and get called, which was your original premise of only 5% equity edge.This has nothing to do with a stop and go, Im not pushing a flop with Aces or Kings.

[Actuary 3]

Also, your idea sounds a lot like a stop and go, however, if UTG calls the raise, then I won't have the first in vigorish on the flop for the stop and go.

we are SB******************

[AcesUp46 0]

If you face a 3 way allin situation, you are just back to where you were equity wise if you pushed and get called, which was your original premise of only 5% equity edge.This has nothing to do with a stop and go, Im not pushing a flop with Aces or Kings.

Your idea was to flat call the raise and then shove on a non-Ace/King flop. This is very similar to the premise of the SNG, ie you deprive your opponent from seeing all 5 cards with his unpaired big cards hand. The only difference is that in a stop and go, you're shoving any flop while here, you're advising shoving on only safe flops.And yes, I totally forgot that we are in the SB, so this stop-and-go-ish line may work.

[iggymcfly 0]

I think this is likely a fold, although I'd insta-call if your ranges were correct. Here's the problem though. Your ranges aren't weighted. Let's say button makes this raise with the following hands, the following percentages of the time:AA: 100%KK: 70%QQ: 40%JJ: 25%AK: 15%TT: 10%That makes the current range:AA: 45%KK: 31%JJ: 11%AK: 7%TT: 4.5%QQ: 2.5%Now if we say he's making a move with a trash hand trying to steal on the flop (a somewhat reasonable move) 10% of the time here, then his adjusted range is:AA: 40%KK: 28%JJ: 10%Trash hand: 10%AK: 6%TT: 4%QQ: 2%Assume MP's only calling a push with TT+, AQ+; make us 70% on average against a trash hand, and I think you'll find calling this push is decidedly -EV. Even if we're heads-up with this range, our equity's only 32%.

[AcesUp46 0]

I think this is likely a fold, although I'd insta-call if your ranges were correct. Here's the problem though. Your ranges aren't weighted. Let's say button makes this raise with the following hands, the following percentages of the time:AA: 100%KK: 70%QQ: 40%JJ: 25%AK: 15%TT: 10%That makes the current range:AA: 45%KK: 31%JJ: 11%AK: 7%TT: 4.5%QQ: 2.5%Now if we say he's making a move with a trash hand trying to steal on the flop (a somewhat reasonable move) 10% of the time here, then his adjusted range is:AA: 40%KK: 28%JJ: 10%Trash hand: 10%AK: 6%TT: 4%QQ: 2%Assume MP's only calling a push with TT+, AQ+; make us 70% on average against a trash hand, and I think you'll find calling this push is decidedly -EV. Even if we're heads-up with this range, our equity's only 32%.

That's the thing I don't like about Poker Stove calculations, that you can't assign weights to the hands. Do you have a poker calculator for this or did you just do it the long way?

[simo_8ball 0]

That's the thing I don't like about Poker Stove calculations, that you can't assign weights to the hands.

You can. Just select only certain combinations of JJ/TT/etc. or say only AhQh and AsQs.

[AcesUp46 0]

You can. Just select only certain combinations of JJ/TT/etc. or say only AhQh and AsQs.

Oooh..that's a nifty trick. Thanks.

[copernicus 0]

Your idea was to flat call the raise and then shove on a non-Ace/King flop. This is very similar to the premise of the SNG, ie you deprive your opponent from seeing all 5 cards with his unpaired big cards hand. The only difference is that in a stop and go, you're shoving any flop while here, you're advising shoving on only safe flops.And yes, I totally forgot that we are in the SB, so this stop-and-go-ish line may work.

sorry, they look similar but couldnt be more different in intent. The purpose of a stop and go is strictly to gain folding equity on a hand that you would otherwise commit to preflop.The intent here is to play the hand for value, but escape with your a$$ intact if the 35% flop comes. A stop and go would be silly with Ms this high.