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rolled up in stud-8 aug 25th


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#1 yeffy

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 01:24 PM

Last night playing a live 30/60 HOE game I was dealt 9-9-9. The bring-in was to my right and I just called an A raised and was called by a 4 and myself.I check called 4th st. with [9-9]9-6, the original raiser showed A-5 and the caller a 4-10. On 5th st. all hell broke loose.Original raiser [x-x]2-4-5 bets [x-x]4-10-8 raises. I call with [9-9]9-6-3. Action comes back to me capped at $240!! Now the player with the 10-4-8 showing is horrible, the guy has no clue how to play the game but I have to give him credit for something, the original raiser has 3 open wheel cards. Can I dump this hand here? With 2 to come and possibly needing to fill up to take half of a 3-way pot whats my best action?I hate playing high only hands in stud-8 and avoid it like the plague. But a rolled up hand is tough to toss.

#2 garamond10pt

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 01:29 PM

Start pushing as early as possible. You have to make the lows pay for their draw.You have to see the river. You most likely have the T84 beat and the 245 is jamming because he's got a board-lock, not necessarily because he has a wheel.

#3 yeffy

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 01:57 PM

garamond10pt said:

Start pushing as early as possible. You have to make the lows pay for their draw.You have to see the river. You most likely have the T84 beat and the 245 is jamming because he's got a board-lock, not necessarily because he has a wheel.
My problem was I felt lost in the hand since I couldn't even jam. The betting was capped before it got back to me. I found myself calling with trip 9's wondering where I was at.After another reply or two I'll let you know what happened it was very interesting.

#4 Gram Green

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 08:36 AM

First of all what was the original raiser's hand on 5th? [x-x] A-5-4?I assume to cap 5th, Op2 (4-10-8) has to have either two pair or a set (assuming he's rainbow). Probably he has 8s over 4s or a set of 8s. We have to watch out for his boat draw.To 3-bet 5th, there's a good chance Op1 (A-5-4) has a made low. It's also possible he has a pair of aces and a strong low and straight draw, or aces up. If he makes a low, he will certainly be willing to cap every street from here on out.So on 5th the pot is about 780 and it's 120 back to you? Then on 6th if it is capped three ways, there would be 1620 in pot, and on 7th if it's capped again that would be 2340. Thus you're getting 6-1 to see 6th, and 5.75-1 to see 7th.Now trips on 5th fill up by showdown 29% of the time, while 2 pair fill up 18% of the time. If Op2 has two pair, you beat him at showdown 88% of the time. If he has trips, you beat him about 76% of the time.If Op1 has the wheel, you're only beating him for the high 29% of the time. If he has a inside straight draw, he'll only take the high 10% of the time. If he has aces and an inside straight draw, he's 19% to win. If he has aces up, he's 16% to win.Obviously if Op1 has a made low he's 100% to win that half. If he has a low draw he is 31% to make it.All in all I think it adds up to a call on 5th. You are pretty sure Op2 will only win the high about 1/5 of the time. Let's assume Op1 will claim the low 2/3 of the time, and will win the high 1/5 of the time. Then your EV is (1/3*3/5)+(1/2*2/3*3/5) = .4. Just barely +EV.If either opponent catches scary on 6th (OP1: A, 2, or 3, OP2: 4 or 8) and it's two bets to you again I think it's a fold. Otherwise I would call down all the way (unless you fill up, then of course you should help cap every street).

#5 yeffy

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 10:29 AM

Thank you Gram for a great reply. The 10-8-4 is a hideous player who has donated thousands to our game and cost many a player multiple bets. For example on another hand that night with my board showing A-3-5-6 and another board showing 2-4-5-J he's betting into us on 6th after a double raise on 5th with 2 pair Q's up. I was holding A-3-4-5-6-6 and my buddy had a made wheel on 5th (so he says) and this guy is betting Queens up...disaster. I get stuck for 2 bets on 6th and end up with Aces up and a 6 low which beats him anyway and the wheel scoops. Damn guy with the wheel even paired deuces on 7th so if the Q's and 10's had folded I take 3/4......but that's another story entirely.In the hand we were discussing the original raiser had Aces a 76 low and a gutshot. The 10-8-4 had 10's and 8's (like I said he's a disaster). Sixth st. was a round of bricks for everyone. My 3 9's never improved and were good for the high half. I just hated the way I had to play the hand but situationally I don't think I can do anything else.Maybe later I'll relay my worst stud 8 beat ever, I held 5-5-5-6-7-8 against a hand that contained 1 pair a gutshot and no possible low draw on 6th, of course he scooped.

#6 yeffy

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 11:02 AM

yeffy said:

Thank you Gram for a great reply. The 10-8-4 is a hideous player who has donated thousands to our game and cost many a player multiple bets. For example on another hand that night with my board showing A-3-5-6 and another board showing 2-4-5-J he's betting into us on 6th after a double raise on 5th with 2 pair Q's up. I was holding A-3-4-5-6-6 and my buddy had a made wheel on 5th (so he says) and this guy is betting Queens up...disaster. I get stuck for 2 bets on 6th and end up with Aces up and a 6 low which beats him anyway and the wheel scoops. Damn guy with the wheel even paired deuces on 7th so if the Q's and 10's had folded I take 3/4......but that's another story entirely.In the hand we were discussing the original raiser had Aces a 76 low and a gutshot. The 10-8-4 had 10's and 8's (like I said he's a disaster). Sixth st. was a round of bricks for everyone. My 3 9's never improved and were good for the high half. I just hated the way I had to play the hand but situationally I don't think I can do anything else. The 10-8-4 actually asked me if I made the third 9 on 7th st. to which I put together 3-6-9-9-J and asked him if he really thought I called $240 with that hand on 5th. The whole table laughed and asked him what the hell he was thinking...his reply: "I had 2 pair I have to bet my hand there." Hooray for fish who have no grasp of stud8.Maybe later I'll relay my worst stud 8 beat ever from taken last night playing 10-20 rotation with overs, I held 5-5-5-6-7-8 against a hand that contained 1 pair a gutshot and no possible low draw on 6th, of course he scooped.


#7 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 09:36 PM

There was a problem with your description. You said an Ace raised, and then later say that the original raiser's board read 2-4-5? Either way, based on your description of the 4-10-8 player it doesn't look like he has three 10's. He may have 10's and 4's or maybe even a set of 4's or 8's. All are possible obviously, but he could even have a hand as bad as KK in the hole trying to knock you out, who knows. The 2-4-5 hand is clearly a real problem, but him raising and re-raising shouldn't lead you to believe that he's already filled his straight. He most certainly has a low at this point and would keep raising even if he had A-7 in the hole. It's not the best spot in the world obvioiuslly, but since you've already put some money into the pot it would seem a little weak to fold right here. There is even the outside chance that the 2-4-5 has 55, 44, or even K-3 with a flush draw. I wanted to mention that I really like the way you played third street. Not re-raising it on 3rd street really disgusing your hand making it look like a pair of 9's, a three straight, a three flush, or a pocket pair. Well done.
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#8 CheckisGood

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 09:52 PM

4 10 8 prolly has 3 8s Id say and the 245 guy is definitley at least freerolling and is betting and raising as he should be. ya also.. where did the ace showing go? Maybe u meant the person with the ace showing had A 5 4 SHOWING? im not sure u prolly have given away part of his hand in your description. I think your 3 9s are probably the best high hand unless the Original raiser has a wheel. You should at least call down hoping to fill up and reevaluate on the river based on the action. I probably would have jammed 4th street a little bit more as the 4 ten appeared to hit bad and maybe you could get it heads up with the low draw and or the Pair of aces whichever the Ace had.
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#9 jayboogie

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 11:03 PM

I like the way you played the hand on the early streets.I think that's a very important part of Stud is that when you have a strong hand that's disguised such as rolled up 9's, you need to not play it so fast and give others a chance to catch up. Yes, you may get outdrawn once in a while, but it happens. If your just raising away, your scaring off other hands that are worth a call but not a raise/re-raise. You should encourage callers that are behind in the hand to call you. Your upcards that you have showing are very important and you should always play them accordingly for the most part. A made low would jam the pot on 5th street, because if they look at your boards, there's no way either of you have a low made yet. I wouldn't automatically give him credit already for the wheel as theres other hands he plays the same way. He actually might not even have a low yet and have a pair with a good low draw instead. The other player in the hand, you should be fairly confident your ahead of. The odd chance he may have rolled up 10's, but you can't be afraid of that, if he has it, he has it. I would definitely be calling here on 5th and re-evaluate if the player with XX 2-4-5 catches good again on 6th. You've put in a lot of bets already and I think you have too strong of a hand to fold as your hand could very well be good enough for half the pot even if it doesn't improve.

#10 Rocketwadster

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 04:19 AM

I agree with how you played it early in the hand (ie. third street), but I think fourth street is where you need to drop the hammer. Make the low draw pay for his half (if he even gets there). 3 to a wheel showing after 5 cards definately scares you, but you don't need to fold there IMO. Based on your descriptions of the other guy with you, he is just the pot sweetener, so once the low starts betting, just call it down until you fill up IMO. Nice hand. 8)

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 06:39 AM

DanielNegreanu said:

I wanted to mention that I really like the way you played third street.  Not re-raising it on 3rd street really disgusing your hand making it look like a pair of 9's, a three straight, a three flush, or a pocket pair.  Well done.
In stud high, slow-playing 3rd when you are rolled up is almost universal. A lot of people carry this strategy over when playing stud-8 and I'm not sure that it's necessarily profitable OR serves to disguise your hand.When I'm rolled up in stud 8, I want to scoop so I typically slow-play if opponents door cards are high and jam it when it seems like low draws are wanting to come along cheap. Obviously it depends on how many people seem interested in 4th street as well. Clearly a 9 is the least intimidating card in a high-low game. Someone checking 3rd and jamming 4th or 5th (with a 96 or 963 board respectively) may send off more alarm bells and suggest rolled up 9's than playing it fast from the get-go (which may suggest wired big pair, or (A9)9 depending on your image). This is a humble counterpoint to DN and I welcome any rebuttal. Always learning.

#12 fatmanonguitar

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 06:43 AM

Sorry. The above post was mine. Forgot to log in.

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 07:22 PM

I have to agree with fatmanonguitar that rolled up 9's probably don't need to be slowplayed like that. First off, any observant opponent will realize that the guy just calling along with a 9 up isn't going low, and usually when someone's going high they're usually aggressive.So when you slowplay a set of 9's, you're probably not doing much hand disguising. Of course, these opponents don't seem to be the least bit observant. So if they're coming anyway, might as well charge 'em.I say fast-play those 9's on every street. If you had something like trip 2's you might get away with it, since calling along with a 2 up wouldn't be surprising (but maybe ultimately unprofitable, since trip 2's are easier to beat than trip 9's), or you could easily fastplay trip A's because aggression with an ace up isn't surprising. In the same vein, fast playing those 9's might make someone figure you for hidden aces or something long before they realize you're rolled up.

#14 greatwhite

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 07:33 PM

Why were you slow playing your hand?




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