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llhe chipspewing? aug 3rd


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#1 Karmahoos

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 11:00 PM

Was playing earlier and came upon this situation...PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is SB with [Js], [Jh]. MP2 posts a blind of $0.35. UTG calls, 2 folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.Raise is a given. All the limpers call making it five to the flop.Flop: (11.40 SB) [Ts], [5s], [Ah] (5 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button bets, UTG folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls.This is the main concern. With this many limpers and an ace on the flop should I be ready to discard this hand or play it aggressively as above? I checked with the intention of folding, but the button popped it from that position and I did not think it necessarily meant he was holding an ace. Is this the right play? If the CO or MP2 were to bet out, should I pop him back as well or just let go?Turn: (7.70 BB) [9h] (2 players)Hero bets, Button calls.Bet to protect hand against possible flush draw or overs. Right or wrong?River: (9.70 BB) [6c] (2 players)Hero checks, Button checks.Should I throw out another bet here or just hope for a cheap showdown?Final Pot: 9.70 BBAnyways, did I completely donk this hand and spew chips at my opponent or were my actions justifiable? Any input is appreciated.

#2 JaysonWeber

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Posted 02 August 2005 - 11:08 PM

I like the flop bet, I guess if this were a 5/10 hand I would check/call the turn and river and probobly have too fold to a raise on the turn, I'd rather see a showdown than fold thats why I am check/calling.EDIT* But at .25/.50 I think your bet on the turn was fine :club:
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#3 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 12:39 AM

Man, I might be a little out of touch with these micro limit games so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't like the idea of raising with JJ from the SB in a multi-way pot. Too often you are going to find yourself with a difficult decision as there aren't a lot of "great" flops out there for JJ. Pre-flop in this situation I'd generally look to slowplay and add some deception to my game, running the risk of allowing the BB to see the flop for free. The other problem with raising is that you make the pot so big that it's now correct for people to chase long draws after the flop. I say keep the pot small, lose the minimum on bad flops, and surprise them once and a while when you hit a good flop. As for your flop play, I'm not a fan of that one either. In a small game like that it doesn't look like your check-raise would knock an ace out of the hand. If I did raise before the flop I probably would have bet the flop trying to represent AK. If I played it how you did, though, I may again look to play a small pot and just call on the flop. I'd then look to see how many players I get behind me, look for a safe turn card, and play accordingly (most likely check/folding to a bet). On the turn I like your bet considering how you played the hand thus far. The river check seems like an ok play also, but who knows with what I'm hearing about these little online games! Actually, if you are going to call a river bet with the JJ anyway, you probably should bet if the dude will call with anything! I'm thinkin' I might need to crush a few micro games so I can be more informed with my advice. It's been a long time since I played $10-$2o! Having said that, poker is poker, and developing too many "bad" habits when playing small games online could hurt your overall development. Similar to a golf swing. If you practice improperly for too long it could curb your development. After reading through some of the threads that's the theme I'm finding. Many of you are playing a style that might work in the games you are playing, but are also developing bad habits that you'll have to learn to grow out of eventually if you want to be successful at the higher limits. Just some food for thought guys, don't take it the wrong way... :wink:
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#4 JaysonWeber

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 01:19 AM

No, Good Advice... We had a 2 threads today talkin' about that. I guess A pro's advice is appreciated... lol
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#5 Karmahoos

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 01:22 AM

Figured I might as well defend a couple of the plays with the low limit thought process that went with em...

DanielNegreanu said:

Man, I might be a little out of touch with these micro limit games so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't like the idea of raising with JJ from the SB in a multi-way pot. Too often you are going to find yourself with a difficult decision as there aren't a lot of "great" flops out there for JJ. Pre-flop in this situation I'd generally look to slowplay and add some deception to my game, running the risk of allowing the BB to see the flop for free.
I agree, there arent that many great flops, but I think it could be safely said that more then 1/5 of them will be favorable, making the raise profitable. Since it is low limit, I can generally count on all my opponents to call since they already have a bet in. This leads to the next point...

DanielNegreanu said:

The other problem with raising is that you make the pot so big that it's now correct for people to chase long draws after the flop. I say keep the pot small, lose the minimum on bad flops, and surprise them once and a while when you hit a good flop.
This is actually what makes this raise the most profitable in low limit games, at least for me. A lot of players will not give you credit for a hand, and will chase to the ends of the earths just to pair their overcards. When you flop a set, it pays.

DanielNegreanu said:

As for your flop play, I'm not a fan of that one either. In a small game like that it doesn't look like your check-raise would knock an ace out of the hand. If I did raise before the flop I probably would have bet the flop trying to represent AK. If I played it how you did, though, I may again look to play a small pot and just call on the flop. I'd then look to see how many players I get behind me, look for a safe turn card, and play accordingly (most likely check/folding to a bet).
Now, this is what I was really asking about. In this case, the checkraise isnt meant to knock out the initial raiser, just ensure that all three of the other limpers get out of the hand. All of them would probably call me with a weak ace, so I am ready to get out of the hand at the sight of cold-callers, but I think a bigger mistake is allowing them to try to hit a miracle card for just one sb, which many of these low limit players are more then willing to do. Maybe this is the wrong thought process, but thats what I posted to find out. Am I right in this reasoning? The final portion of your post I would tend to agree with. We can only hope to be lucky enough to find a game anywhere close to as loose passive as these low limit internet games are. Still, I think there is a lesson to be learned from them. The main reason I have been playing is so that I can see some of the more difficult concepts of holdem in action. It really allows you to understand some of the math in a different way. I think all the players understand that optimal play at these limits differ greatly from that at higher limits and adjustments have to be made between them. Anyways, thanks for the response, didnt actually expect to hear from dn himself.

#6 screech

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 01:27 AM

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Too often you are going to find yourself with a difficult decision as there aren't a lot of "great" flops out there for JJ.
With 5 limpers already in the pot, your equity is much higher than 18%. Sure there are a lot of bad flops for JJ, but at these low limit games people are entering pots with utter trash like 36 and Q4. These players are sooo much worse than the bad players you are used to seing.

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The other problem with raising is that you make the pot so big that it's now correct for people to chase long draws after the flop.
You sound a lot like sklanksy here :wink: . Again, it all comes back to the skill level at these limits. If you play much better postflop than your opponents, I don't think this should be too much of a problem. People will call you down with absolutely nothing, even when their longshot draws don't dictate that they should, and that will more than make up for the times you get outdrawn.

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As for your flop play, I'm not a fan of that one either. In a small game like that it doesn't look like your check-raise would knock an ace out of the hand.
Betting out here cannot protect our hand against weak draws. Check-raising may fail, but if it works, we blast out those weak draws, or make them make a mistake by playing. If it doesn't work, a blank on the turn will increase our equity, and the big bet will protect our hand better then the flop bet could. Also, the bet comes from the button, and doesn't necessarily mean he has an ace. I like the check-raise.This is the problem with playing low limits. You often find yourself having to protect large pots that you've built with decent hands preflop by raising with marginal hands on later streets. I also like the turn bet. At these lower limits your opponents could be on all kinds of weird draws. Make em pay.Another blank on the river. You should bet this for two reasons: 1) Your opponent hasn't shown any strength (making a raise here less likely)2) He's gonna call with a lot more hands that you have beat then he'd bet with. He'd probably bet here with aces or better (which you'd have a hard time not calling), but he'd check with tens, fives, nines, and other hands he would have called a bet with.)

#7 Karmahoos

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 01:29 AM

Heh, looks like I beat screech to it.

#8 Briguy

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 04:32 AM

I disagree with screech's take on betting the river. There is a range of hands that the button will bet that flop with. He may be trying to extract value from a spade draw, with five in the pot. He may be betting a weak A (or even a strong A). He may have a T with a good kicker, and figure nobody else for an A. If he does have a weak A, he will call a river bet, and you will lose one more BB. If he was on a draw that missed, he will muck and you will not win another BB from him. Betting the river will only gain you an extra BB if this player had a nekkid T, and still thinks that it will win on the river. Will this be the case more than 50% of the time?The rest of the hand looks OK to me. But I am going to remember Daniel's advice later this week when I move up levels. :club:

#9 copernicus

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 04:55 AM

when you are playing middle pairs against a bunch of limpers, you are playing for the set. If you don't flop it, get out. If you dont get out, you've turned yourself into one of the chasers, but you're likely to be playing with 2 outs against a couple of 8+ outers, unless the flop is totally unconnected and rainbow.And DNs point about not building the pot for the draws is correct at these limits. While you may make a lot of money in low limits from players chasing draws, you don't make it when they have the correct odds to chase the draw. When you build a pot by raising with your own drawing hand (which is what JJ is in a family pot) you are giving everyone the correct odds to call with flush and sometimes OE straight draws (with 7.7 BB in the pot flush draws are correct and you're not chasing them away with 1 BB).

#10 BeanGW

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 05:24 AM

DanielNegreanu said:

Many of you are playing a style that might work in the games you are playing, but are also developing bad habits that you'll have to learn to grow out of eventually if you want to be successful at the higher limits.
I blame Sklansky, Ed Miller, Mason Malmuth, and the horror that is SSHE. Now I will duck as Aseem throws the book at me! :wink: Seriously though, I would say over 80% of the advice that gets posted in Strat regarding small stakes limit HE games comes directly from the pages of Small Stakes Hold 'Em. But if I ever got the cajones and bankroll to play at a 10/20 and above game, I'd focus on some more advanced literature first.

#11 econ_tim

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 05:50 AM

DanielNegreanu said:

I'm thinkin' I might need to crush a few micro games so I can be more informed with my advice. It's been a long time since I played $10-$2o!
This would be really fun for the rest of us to read about, although probably pretty boring for you. In one of your articles, you said to loosen up your old 10/20 game you once offered a prize to anyone who took down a pot with 83o. If you play 1/2 limit online, you'd be giving out a lot of these prizes.

DanielNegreanu said:

Having said that, poker is poker, and developing too many "bad" habits when playing small games online could hurt your overall development. Similar to a golf swing. If you practice improperly for too long it could curb your development. After reading through some of the threads that's the theme I'm finding. Many of you are playing a style that might work in the games you are playing, but are also developing bad habits that you'll have to learn to grow out of eventually if you want to be successful at the higher limits. Just some food for thought guys, don't take it the wrong way... :wink:
Many of us are playing a couple hours a day, trying to slowly build our bankrolls and move up in limits. I'm sure we'll have to change our play, preflop and postflop, to succeed at higher levels. It's cool to read your advice on our baby stakes hands, because we'd all love to play in the big games, which certainly require more sophisticated play. Maybe some of the "bad habits" you're reading about here could be the subject of a good Cardplayer article or a one-a-day.
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#12 bdams19

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 06:03 AM

10/20 is micro limits, that'll be the day =D

#13 BeanGW

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 06:47 AM

DanielNegreanu said:

I'm thinkin' I might need to crush a few micro games so I can be more informed with my advice. It's been a long time since I played $10-$2o!
You are welcome to come and crush our Party Poker FCP strat table anytime, Mr. Negreanu. Maybe we'll even bump up the stakes to $1/2 for ya!10/20... LOL... Before the advent of internet poker maybe that was considered Small Stakes.

#14 screech

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 06:52 AM

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I disagree with screech's take on betting the river.
Do you plan to check/fold the river? I don't like this play at all. If our opponent bets we have to call because of the pot size and our indication of weakness on the end. Check/call is a good play if our opponent tends to bluff at an indication of weakness. I like bet/fold though. I think that because our opponent bet the flop in last position, there's a good chance he has a pair lower than ours.I think most opponents at this level will call here with a low pair that they would not bet. I think most of these opponents would also bet a pair of tens if checked to, so we cannot check/fold here. True, it is very likely he is on a flush draw or has a weak ace, and we will lose a bet in this situation. If he raises us on the end, we can safely throw our hand away. Either way, we still lose one bet if he has one of these hands. I guess the situation is mostly read dependent. But with no reads, I think bet/fold earns a bit more.

#15 Briguy

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 07:59 AM

Check/call, obviously. Bet/fold may be ok, but I'd rather see the showdown if I'm going to commit another bet. Especially with no information on the bettor.

#16 jayboogie

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 08:10 AM

Raising out of the small blind with JJ is probably a bad idea in just about every game, unless your up against 1 limper, then raising and knocking out the big blind to protect your hand is a good idea. The main thing here is your out of position and your going to see an overcard flop most of the time. Jacks in a loose game should be played like a middle pair, your trying to hit a set with them.

#17 princeof56k

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 08:13 AM

I dont raise JJ from the SB in this situation. While low-limit players are bad and people are right in that they tend play real crap hands, people also forget that these players love to play Ax regardless of position (which is the reason I'm always careful when Ace flops at these limits). And if they hit their Ace they arent folding (even if you do check/raise them). You are also way out of position in the SB. These people will limp in with AK for crying out loud and never bet it the whole way. This could put you in the tough situation where you keep hammering away and getting called down by the better hand. And I dont like check/raising the flop there either. Mainly because I dont think this gets checked around most of the time. If one of the MP players bet and there is a caller, what do you do? While it seemed to work out ok because the button appeared to make a position play, I'm still a little suprised the other three guys folded. I will say that after the other 3 guys folded your initial reads were probably correct and no one had an Ace and you're way ahead here.What I would do is take the cheap flop and then make a play depending on the flop and the players in the hand.

#18 TJ_Eckleburg

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 08:46 AM

I think the best way to explain the discrepancies between Daniel's concepts in poker and ours is that low limits are all about a) betting for value, and b) having a firm grasp of odds, equity, and when to draw and not to draw.At stakes in Negreanu territory, the game is so tight/aggressive/creative, with the occassional super-fish, your creativity and tight/aggressiveness matters more than recognizing mundane value bet situations.I personally think it's wonderfully refreshing to have Daniel's point of view on these hands, and it's insightful to see HIS thought process when he plays poker.To the OP: with AA, KK, and QQ, your EV (AND your variance) increase as other players enter the hand with you. In practical terms, this means that premium hands gain a STRONGER advantage over the field as weaker hands enter, but variance increases too. There is a significant dropoff from QQ to JJ, but the same holds true with jacks, just to a lesser extent.This is a preflop raise all day long, for value and equity if no other reason.On the flop, I think check/folding isn't a terrible idea. It's highly likely an opponent could have an ace, and making that read and laying it down isn't a terrible thing.You should decide on the flop if you're going to see the river or not, and I think check/raising the button is the best way to do that, if you intend to. Everyone behind you has to call a double bet, and then all that matters is if you read the button for an ace or not.I think if you're going to see the river, the best line is:Raise preflopCheckraise the buttonBet/call the turnLead the river if just called on the turn, check/call the river if raised on the turn
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#19 speedz99

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 11:20 AM

I agree with DN and think that a preflop raise is no good here. In a multi way pot you are usually going to lay your JJ down so it saves that extra bet. If you hit your set or see a ragged flop you have good deception value to win more than you would have when your opponents can put you on a big hand with the raise from the SB. So assuming you don't raise preflop...-check/fold a dangerous flop-check/raise a good flop
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#20 Chiggleslap

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Posted 03 August 2005 - 12:41 PM

speedz99 said:

I agree with DN and think that a preflop raise is no good here. In a multi way pot you are usually going to lay your JJ down so it saves that extra bet. If you hit your set or see a ragged flop you have good deception value to win more than you would have when your opponents can put you on a big hand with the raise from the SB. So assuming you don't raise preflop...-check/fold a dangerous flop-check/raise a good flop
I complete the SB w/ JJ in multi-way pots, rather than raising, on many occasions, and the reasons for it described by DN and speedz are dead on. Limping is not a bad play here, but on the other hand, I don't think a raise is bad either. While there's the argument that you should be raising to push an edge you have over your opponents, I definitely don't think you're missing out on any equity by just completing the BB in this spot, since you'll make up for it by getting more bets from people who are behind on subsequent streets that will stay in with worse hands because you've played your hand deceptively.There's value in mixing up your game, even at the micro-limits.Like Daniel said, succeeding at higher limits is going to be a struggle if you don't find ways to mix up your game while maintaining equal or better profitability.




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