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I am a long time reader/first time poster here and appreciate the advice and strategies posted by everyone.My frustration is this; I play mostly at local B&M's, very little online in the micro games. While I do very well in NoLimit MTT's (live) and cash games (live and on-line), I can not seem to beat limit games. One of the local indian casinos has a 3/6 limit game with 3/3/6/6 structured betting. Horible game IMO. I can't count the number of times I've had legitimate hands cracked by some old fart calling raises all the way down with 76o. Is the idea in these games to just by in large and be a calling station hoping to catch a real hand? I tend to be tight/agressive in NL games, not afraid to bluff at pots in position and after having a good read of the table but not being able to bet enough to protect my hands in limit is causing a ton of suck outs against me. I've only been playing about 7 mos and learned, mostly, playing $30 buy in NL MTT's at B&M's so it's quite possible my game just isn't good enough for limit yet (?) Any suggestions on how to have better success at limit vs. nolimit would be appreciated.

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play against better players.Bad players call down with bad oddsGood players don't, as much.It's an anomaly associated with Limit.Good players are actually easier to beat.Thus, good players actually lose money in Limit, because they only chase with good odds.While bad players make money in limit, because they always suck out on othersSo this brings up the question:If Good Players lose money and Bad Players win money, why do we call them, Good/Bad respectively? reminds me of...when I heard "the sea horse is the only animal where the male gives birth"My immendiate reaction: "no the sea horse is the only animal zoologists misnamed the sexes."it kind of relates.Be a Bad Player, Make Millions

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play against better players.Bad players call down with bad oddsGood players don't, as much.It's an anomaly associated with Limit.Good players are actually easier to beat.Thus, good players actually lose money in Limit, because they only chase with good odds.While bad players make money in limit, because they always suck out on othersSo this brings up the question:If Good Players lose money and Bad Players win money, why do we call them, Good/Bad respectively?  reminds me of...when I heard "the sea horse is the only animal where the male gives birth"My immendiate reaction: "no the sea horse is the only animal zoologists misnamed the sexes."it kind of relates.Be a Bad Player, Make Millions
lmao.... That's kind of what I was thiking as I left the casino...broke.I also play a $2-$10 spread game at another casino where the players are, in general, better players and I have much more success.The funny thing is, I'm considered a "good" player in NL tournaments....maybe that just shows the level of competition :club: To the first reply, flame on I guess but I'm really asking about the philisofical differences between NL and Limit, I think this reply answers that pretty well.thanks for the reply
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Any suggestions on how to have better success at limit vs. nolimit would be appreciated.
Probably the best advice would be to get better at limit.Not to make judgments or anything, but 99.32154% of the time when someone complains about bad beats being the only cause of why they lose, they are generally:-a losing player-don't understand the concept of poker (relating to the sum of your and your opponents mistakes over time)-don't adjust their play to certain opponentsI would suggest reading SSHE (Small Stakes Hold 'Em by Sklansky, Miller, and Malmuth) and posting your hands. It's easy to go from FL to NL, but much harder to do the reverse. Learning NL first is like learning to walk, but with a limp. To learn FL, you sorta hafta learn how to walk again.
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You are not going to beat live 3/6 with the regularity of a higher limit game or a NL game. You should be able to make it profitable long term, but you will certainly post more nights in the negative (though your loss sum should be less) than you would at a more skillful game.To win in a 3/6 game you must make yourself play in a way that you may deem "bad." Really 3/6 is a 95% robotic game. If you don't have a made hand, calculate the pot odds and figure out if it is worth a call. Chasing is very acceptable and necessary to be profitable. Try to mostly chase to the nuts though.I started making my poker living in a 6/12 limit game in an Indian Casino in Tucson, AZ. IMO those players were just as skilled but slightly less aggressive than the 20/40 limit game I occasionally play in now (I am mostly a NL player now.) While online I think the play is pretty good at a limit game 3/6 and higher, ESPN has made the play horrendous in B&M low limit. The game has just changed so much. Point being this: In low limit poker in B&M, unlike NL, it is impossible to be profitable without the cards to back it up. Jokers rule the world and most of 'em can't even spell poker.

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You are not going to beat live 3/6 with the regularity of a higher limit game or a NL game.  You should be able to make it profitable long term, but you will certainly post more nights in the negative (though your loss sum should be less) than you would at a more skillful game.
Am I misunderstanding this?Are you saying that if you consistently play against really bad players that you will book less winning sessions than you would if you played with more skilled players?
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You are not going to beat live 3/6 with the regularity of a higher limit game or a NL game.  You should be able to make it profitable long term, but you will certainly post more nights in the negative (though your loss sum should be less) than you would at a more skillful game.
Am I misunderstanding this?Are you saying that if you consistently play against really bad players that you will book less winning sessions than you would if you played with more skilled players?
I essentially said the same thing.Pick on someone with more posts!
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another vote for Bad Play(ers) actually makes more $$$ in Low Limit games
All this time I thought that you should actually strive to be good at poker.Make it one more, I think they've convinced me.
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You are not going to beat live 3/6 with the regularity of a higher limit game or a NL game.  You should be able to make it profitable long term, but you will certainly post more nights in the negative (though your loss sum should be less) than you would at a more skillful game.
Am I misunderstanding this?Are you saying that if you consistently play against really bad players that you will book less winning sessions than you would if you played with more skilled players?
I essentially said the same thing.Pick on someone with more posts!
I can't type as fast as you!!
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You are not going to beat live 3/6 with the regularity of a higher limit game or a NL game.  You should be able to make it profitable long term, but you will certainly post more nights in the negative (though your loss sum should be less) than you would at a more skillful game.To win in a 3/6 game you must make yourself play in a way that you may deem "bad."  Really 3/6 is a 95% robotic game.  If you don't have a made hand, calculate the pot odds and figure out if it is worth a call.  Chasing is very acceptable and necessary to be profitable.  Try to mostly chase to the nuts though.I started making my poker living in a 6/12 limit game in an Indian Casino in Tucson, AZ.    IMO those players were just as skilled but slightly less aggressive than the 20/40 limit game I occasionally play in now (I am mostly a NL player now.)  While online I think the play is pretty good at a limit game 3/6 and higher, ESPN has made the play horrendous in B&M low limit.  The game has just changed so much.  Point being this:  In low limit poker in B&M, unlike NL, it is impossible to be profitable without the cards to back it up.  Jokers rule the world and most of 'em can't even spell poker.
Thanks Jimmy....very helpful reply.cool avatar too!
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You are not going to beat live 3/6 with the regularity of a higher limit game or a NL game.  You should be able to make it profitable long term, but you will certainly post more nights in the negative (though your loss sum should be less) than you would at a more skillful game.To win in a 3/6 game you must make yourself play in a way that you may deem "bad."  Really 3/6 is a 95% robotic game.  If you don't have a made hand, calculate the pot odds and figure out if it is worth a call.  Chasing is very acceptable and necessary to be profitable.  Try to mostly chase to the nuts though.I started making my poker living in a 6/12 limit game in an Indian Casino in Tucson, AZ.    IMO those players were just as skilled but slightly less aggressive than the 20/40 limit game I occasionally play in now (I am mostly a NL player now.)  While online I think the play is pretty good at a limit game 3/6 and higher, ESPN has made the play horrendous in B&M low limit.  The game has just changed so much.  Point being this:  In low limit poker in B&M, unlike NL, it is impossible to be profitable without the cards to back it up.  Jokers rule the world and most of 'em can't even spell poker.
Thanks Jimmy....very helpful reply.cool avatar too!
how is this helpful when he is giving you awful advice. Limit Holdem is a game based on the long run. So, as long as you are a good player, over the long run, you will make more then the bad players. Its very easy to think about the suckouts that happen and forget the suckouts we inflict or the times when all of those chasers call down and we rake in a big pot. What you and this JimmyBaker guy are saying is so dumb that it is almost funny. You aren't realizing that we make money off of those players chasing. Basically you guys are trying to start teh whole NL is more skillfull and better then LHE argument that has been done at this site ad nauseum since it began. It is a rather stupid argument. Either u want to learn how to play LHE or you don't. If you do post hands here, please don't post a bunch of bad beats. Post hands that are interesting. Read this section for a bit before you start posting hands. Be sure to give advice on other people's hands too
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You should be a winning player in low limit hold'em overtime. You just have to know what the odds are and overtime you should be able to pick up the probable hands of your opponents. Incorporate that into your odds and then apply the fundamental theorm of poker based on their probable hands. At low limits I play exactly like a robot. Mixing it up doesn't come in until what, 10-20?

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when I heard "the sea horse is the only animal where the male gives birth"My immendiate reaction: "no the sea horse is the only animal zoologists misnamed the sexes."
ok Jim Gaffigan
if he said that, I never heard it.It's an original, ask my wife!"have you tried the Hot Pocket Hot Pocket?"its tastes just like a Hot Pocket"
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You should be a winning player in low limit hold'em overtime. You just have to know what the odds are and overtime you should be able to pick up the probable hands of your opponents. Incorporate that into your odds and then apply the fundamental theorm of poker based on their probable hands. At low limits I play exactly like a robot. Mixing it up doesn't come in until what, 10-20?
I am the first to admit that this is a weakness to my game that is magnified in limit play possibly. I've been reading everything I can get my hands on and posts here but the mathematics of the game is something that I still have to really think about rather than just knowing the odds automatically at the flop as some people seem to be able to do.Good point. Thanks for the reply.
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i suck at both games so i only play pot limit. cause thats where champions are made.sike.i play both, but i prefer NL cause I:A) enjoy it better. you know, poker is fun/profitable...when you are having funB) stacking ppl in a hand, or being stacked.C) manipulating pot sizeD) I get pissed at ppl easily in limit. mostly when i play short handed. i dont like playing mad...so i just stick to NL. I don't mind taking one bad beat playing NL and losing a buy in or two, but losing in lhe for some reason angers me. E) NL simply fits more of my style of play and mentality towards poker...and reasons i play it.I love bad players, and there are plenty in each game..I just prefer NL for the reasons mentioned above. so i play it more ofthen than limit. easy- Jordan

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You are not going to beat live 3/6 with the regularity of a higher limit game or a NL game. You should be able to make it profitable long term, but you will certainly post more nights in the negative (though your loss sum should be less) than you would at a more skillful game.  
Loose passive tables are low variance games relative to ones against good (presumably aggressive) players.The opposite of what you said is correct.
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Guest Zach6668

OP,Since you seem serious, I need to make this clear to you, and Actuary et al, I hate to rain on your parade, but what you guys are doing is mean.Actuary's advice is sarcasm in full form.Jimmy Baker's advice is plain wrong.KDawg knows his stuff, so does Abbaddabba and basically any of the others who post here regularly. Look at their hands. Actuary and Alpha do know what they are talking about, btw, but they is being sarcastic here, and I want to be sure that you understand that.The biggest concept you have to familiarize yourself first when starting to learn Limit Hold 'Em is that Limit is a COMPLETELY different game than NL. That is key.Now, forget everything you think you know about poker. Go read Theory of Poker by Sklansky, Small Stakes Hold 'Em (SSHE) by Miller, etc.Once you have read, and completely understood SSHE, start playing some micro-limit poker. Play as low as you can play. Try and work on the concepts applied in the book.Meanwhile, if you are unsure about ANYTHING, pull up the hand history, USE THE CONVERTER (see the Announcement atop the forum for a link), and post the hand here, without results. This is very important as well.Now, read EVERY hand that you come across in the Micro-Limit section, and add comments or questions as you see fit. Don't be afraid to ask a "stupid" question or anything, there are really no flames in the strat forums. There are TONS of fantastic poker players here who can help you.Now, you have to trust me on this one. I did the exact same thing, although I was never any good at NL, or Limit. Then I finally read SSHE, and came here and did what I advocated above.Oh yeah, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, please play within your bankroll. The mathematically proven ideal bankroll is at least 300 BB. For example, to play .50/1, you should have $300 in your account. This is to avoid the mean trials of variance, as you will have bad days, and you will have great days. You will have DISASTEROUS weeks, you will have INCREDIBLE weeks. The idea is that you will come up over time. Ideally, you want to work your way up the limits, when you are comfortable, and have the proper bankroll. A great winrate is 2 BB / 100 hands, although higher can be acheived, I think, so don't expect to win every time you play, and so on.I thought of another essential. Get POKERTRACKER. Once you feel you are applying the concepts in SSHE and that you learned here, Pokertracker helps you feed on the fish and avoid the rest of us sharks. Trust me, it makes a world of difference as you move up in the levels.Alright. The next step after you have done ALL of this, is to reap the rewards of basically being able to print your own money, at your leisure.Trust me, it works.If you have any questions, post away.Good luck.Zach

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You are not going to beat live 3/6 with the regularity of a higher limit game or a NL game. You should be able to make it profitable long term, but you will certainly post more nights in the negative (though your loss sum should be less) than you would at a more skillful game.
Am I misunderstanding this?Are you saying that if you consistently play against really bad players that you will book less winning sessions than you would if you played with more skilled players?
Assuming that we are more skilled than both levels of play, then yes I would say you've drawn the correct assumption. Long term we should be profitable against both, but I would say the frequency of our winning, or our level of consistency is able to improve with the level of our opponents. This is not to say we would win a larger sum.
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