LJH2100 0 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I was in college today and was really bored and was thinking about how quickly a player can move through the limits of LHE, when I got home I modified the chart to suit the ring games of PokerStars. Basically the chart shows the level you want to play at, how much money you need (BB X 300) and how many hours of consistent play (making 1BB an hour) it will take to move up to the next limit.Blinds.............$ Needed.......Hrs to Move to next Limit.02/.04............12.00............450.05/.10............30.00............300.10/.20............60.00............450.25/.50...........150.00...........300.50/1..............300.00...........3001/2.................600.00...........3002/4................1200.00..........1503/6................1800.00..........2005/10..............3000.00...........30010/20............6000.00...........15015/30............9000.00...........30030/60...........18000.00..........20050/100.........30000.00..........300100/200.......60000.00..........300200/400..........120K.............450500/1K...........300K.............3001K/2K.............600KTotal hours to make it to the big leagues 4750.Keep in mind this is if you consistently earn a BB each hour while at the limit and never take any real big losses, also it doesn't account for any money you take for yourself.Tell me what you think,Levin Link to post Share on other sites
Shark527 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Nice post. Link to post Share on other sites
Poker Addict 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Yeah, I like it. I have been going off of my BB/100 Hands because Poker Tracker does a good job with that. I just need to convert hands to hours to get similar results. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Make a better chart talking about BB/100 instead of BB/hour, and then how many hands it will take you to jump to the next level, assuming whatever winrate.1 BB/ hour is a terrible win rate. Link to post Share on other sites
tj9422- 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 1BB/hr rate applies to live play. A good win rate for on-line play is 3 to 4 BB/Hr. This is because you play more hands in an hour on-line. Link to post Share on other sites
LJH2100 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 1BB/hr rate applies to live play. A good win rate for on-line play is 3 to 4 BB/Hr. This is because you play more hands in an hour on-line.Oh that is good information to know, I thought one BB/hour was a little low but I haven't moved out of the micro limits yet, I'm at like 20-25BB/hr there LOL. That makes me change my view on what limit i need to be at. My goal is to make $12.00/hr by the fall, which would provide a decent enough income but now I realize I only need 1200 in my BR instead of like 3600 LOLLevin Link to post Share on other sites
tj9422- 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I have a Bank Roll thread I started. http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...=111756&hl=On the thread you will find links to other post on the BR topic. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 It's better just to ignore the BB/hour stat for online play, because hands per hour varies so much between games, and since everyone plays a different type of tables.Stick to BB/100 hands. Link to post Share on other sites
LJH2100 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 What is the general target goal for BB/100 hands?Levin Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 What is the general target goal for BB/100 hands?Levin2 BB/100 is very good, but it's gonna depend on the level, and the impact of the rake, etc.2 BB/100 is a good approximation for a good player. Maybe even "very good". Link to post Share on other sites
cwik 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 2 BB/100 is very good, but it's gonna depend on the level, and the impact of the rake, etc.2 BB/100 is a good approximation for a good player. Maybe even "very good".Also if it helps, a trick I found that can increase your bb/100 numbers incredibly. Move to NLHE. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Also if it helps, a trick I found that can increase your bb/100 numbers incredibly. Move to NLHE.Sorry, could you speak up? I couldn't hear you over my brand new 1080p LCD TV, and the sound of me counting my tens of thousands of dollars. Link to post Share on other sites
cwik 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Sorry, could you speak up? I couldn't hear you over my brand new 1080p LCD TV, and the sound of me counting my tens of thousands of dollars.yeah, I heard that got a bit soggy. Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 1BB/hr rate applies to live play. A good win rate for on-line play is 3 to 4 BB/Hr. This is because you play more hands in an hour on-line.3-4 is kinda high, although doable if youre running well and playing well.2-3 is more realistic for a good player, as zach said.i also really enjoy this and would like to see it converted to bb/100 Link to post Share on other sites
jmkiser 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Sorry, could you speak up? I couldn't hear you over my brand new 1080p LCD TV, and the sound of me counting my tens of thousands of dollars. Link to post Share on other sites
tj9422- 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Chart up date.Blinds.............$ Needed.......Hrs to Move up.....1BB/100H......2BB/100H......3BB/100H......4BB/100HTotal hours to make it to the big leagues 4750.Keep in mind this is if you consistently earn a BB each hour while at the limit and never take any real big losses, also it doesn't account for any money you take for yourself.I add BB/100Hands to move up to the next level. This is based on 300/BB for the limits. A safer guide to use is 400/BB to allow for the down swings that may happen when you enter a new limit.Had to get to work, will complete later. Link to post Share on other sites
Poker Addict 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 2 BB/100 is very good, but it's gonna depend on the level, and the impact of the rake, etc.2 BB/100 is a good approximation for a good player. Maybe even "very good".I know you say this depends on a few things, could you expand on it? I am running pretty good in the micro limits - .25/.50. Any breakdown of what is good depending on the various limits? Or what do you do to calculate the impact of the rake? And anything else(etc.)?I'm trying to evaluate my game, the best tables, etc. If this is covered somewhere else, I apologize. Maybe I can be pointed there? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I know you say this depends on a few things, could you expand on it? I am running pretty good in the micro limits - .25/.50. Any breakdown of what is good depending on the various limits? Or what do you do to calculate the impact of the rake? And anything else(etc.)?I'm trying to evaluate my game, the best tables, etc. If this is covered somewhere else, I apologize. Maybe I can be pointed there?I'm assuming you play at Stars?They probably have the best rake structure, so it's not too much of a concern there.To measure rake, calculate the rake you've paid, and convert it into a BB/100 type number. 1-2 is probably standard, anything higher and we're getting into a tough situation. Rake on AP at 3/6 (including the BBJ) was probably close to 4 BB/100 (6-max). And it will be higher for 6-max, than FR as well.The other thing it depends on, obviously, is just our overall edge over the table. How bad the other players are, and how good we are at exploiting their tendencies, of course.At a random 25/50 table, we're probably able to do like 2-3 BB/100. I wouldn't expect anything more, but I would never be upset if my winrate was 1 BB/100 either, but I'd know I could do a little work, anyways. Link to post Share on other sites
Poker Addict 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Thanks, I'm not at my poker computer so I can't see it. But I assume that Poker Tracker keeps track of the rake as well.And yes I play at Stars in the lower limits. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Thanks, I'm not at my poker computer so I can't see it. But I assume that Poker Tracker keeps track of the rake as well.Yup. Link to post Share on other sites
LJH2100 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 Chart up date.Blinds.............$ Needed.......Hrs to Move up.....1BB/100H......2BB/100H......3BB/100H......4BB/100H.02/.04............12.00............450....................0.04/750.......0.08/375......0.12/250.......0.16/187.5.05/.10............30.00............300....................0.10/600.......0.20/300......0.30/200.......0.40/150.10/.20............60.00............450....................0.20/750.......0.40/375......0.60/250.......0.80/187.5.25/.50...........150.00...........300....................0.50/600.......1.00/300.......1.50/200.......2.00/150.50/1..............300.00...........3001/2.................600.00...........3002/4................1200.00..........1503/6................1800.00..........2005/10..............3000.00...........30010/20............6000.00...........15015/30............9000.00...........30030/60...........18000.00..........20050/100.........30000.00..........300100/200.......60000.00..........300200/400..........120K.............450500/1K...........300K.............3001K/2K.............600KTotal hours to make it to the big leagues 4750.Keep in mind this is if you consistently earn a BB each hour while at the limit and never take any real big losses, also it doesn't account for any money you take for yourself.I add BB/100Hands to move up to the next level. This is based on 300/BB for the limits. A safer guide to use is 400/BB to allow for the down swings that may happen when you enter a new limit.Had to get to work, will complete later.Hey TJ I appreciate you using my copyrighted material...just kidding I was looking at your chart and noticed you had transitioning from a $150.00 bankoll to a $300.00 bankroll would take 30000hands @$1/100H, it would actually be 15000 or 150/100H. I'm at work so I haven't really check any other that was just the obvious one, but before you finished i just wanted to address that to understand your thinking a little better.Levin Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I would like to put forth the notion that 300 BBs isn't enough for 100/200, 200/400, etc. Link to post Share on other sites
Poker Addict 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I would like to put forth the notion that 300 BBs isn't enough for 100/200, 200/400, etc.What do you think would be enough? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 What do you think would be enough?It depends on a million things.You just can't say a random number for a bankroll anymore.I mean, 300 BB is a good approximation for loose, bad full ring games, but in reality, each individual's number will be different, depending on comfort level, skill level, overall game conditions, etc.The biggest thing, is that when you step up the levels is the overall aggression tends to increase, so your standard deviation will increase as well, which will increase your risk of ruin given a certain bankroll size, etc.There's a formula that plugs a lot of this info in, and gives you a BR size for a certain risk of ruin, but I don't remember it. Link to post Share on other sites
jmkiser 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I think the tables and graphs are nice and feel good, but to treat them as standard is wrong.Bankroll stats aren't one magic number that covers everyone. There are tons of factors that play into the bankroll equation. How loose or tight are you? How aggressive or passive are you? What are the types of tables that you normally play at? Are they a 100% mix of loose / aggressive & tight / passive? What limit happens to be what way on what site?Personally, I notice that PokerStars micro stakes tables tend to lean more towards loose / passive while Full Tilt micro stakes tables tend to lean more towards loose / aggressive.Also, you have to take into account the limit being played. 1/2 is different from .25/.50 is different from .05/.10 is different from 1/2 at another site, etc.Then you get to talk about how much risk is the right amount for you? You don't want to have too few, obviously, but then you don't want to have too many because it will take you years to move up one level.Zach is right and there is a very complicated formula out there (I forget what it is as well) in which you can input the different factors and it will spit out a number that best fits a bankroll size for you.Still, though, we talk bankroll in a general idea. 300BB's is about as best as you can get for a "good start" for the normal winning player. Now keep in mind, you have to be a winning player for a bankroll to even mean anything. If over 100k hands, you're -0.5 BB/100, you might not be a winning player... yet. So bankroll discussions mean nothing until you up your skill level.Honestly, to most people at the micro-stakes level, I think that is a million times more important. Talking intricately about bankroll size (which I admit that I've done before) is much less of an importance then working on your game. Read more and focus more on hand discussions. Post your own hands that have stumped you. Talk about difficult situations that you've been in and hear some responses. Get a better feel for the game and a lot more experience. Read read read, play play play. Then, once you're a recorded winning player and are playing at stakes that matter a bit more, bankroll discussions have a much better effect. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now