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I have been playing for about 3 hours and have worked my stack form 300 to 850 with a solid table image only shown down winners.A new player comes to sit in the game UTG buys in for the full 500 $ (players is mid 20's and all wiggered out talking on a cell) and posts the 5 $is delt then opens for 20$, I look down on the button and see 2-3 off suit - now i think ( time charge is coming soon and i will be leaving but i also look at this guy and i am reading him as a total donkey) so i make the call and the small blind calls.pot is 65 the flop comes A-4-4 and the small blind checks - wigger bets 40 - i call the the SB calls pot is now 185 ( 7 rake taken) 177 $turn is my golden 5 SB checks Wigger bets 100 i repop to 220 SB tanks and call 170 all in and the wigger stands up and asks me if i got a 4- i smile and he pushs i call and he turns over AK , SB shows 33 ?? and I show 23 - the river 10 and take it down .now i told this hand to Vick12 and he thinks long term that this is -ev play.but i think because of the the said situation it can be played profitably what do think ?

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The preflop call is -EV, imho.If you flop an open-ended draw with 23, you're drawing to the ignorant end. Otherwise, you're calling preflop hoping to flop a gutshot.I think the appropriate calling range does widen against a bad player, but the game isn't deep enough to warrant calling with a hand that hits as seldom as 23o.

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funny thing is i was reading HOC2 and Bobby Huff was talking about a 2-3 he played busting top set.and 2-3 weeks later this hand came up.i really think against the one raiser it can be profitable but against 2 people i am not sure

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I have been playing for about 3 hours and have worked my stack form 300 to 850 with a solid table image only shown down winners.A new player comes to sit in the game UTG buys in for the full 500 $ (players is mid 20's and all wiggered out talking on a cell) and posts the 5 $is delt then opens for 20$, I look down on the button and see 2-3 off suit - now i think ( time charge is coming soon and i will be leaving but i also look at this guy and i am reading him as a total donkey) so i make the call and the small blind calls.
Lol. I'm reading you as a total donkey. Stop calling raises with 23o. It's not profitable. Ever.
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Lol. I'm reading you as a total donkey. Stop calling raises with 23o. It's not profitable. Ever.
you sir are mistaken and by saying some is not profitable "EVER" you lack the theory needed for deep stack play. ( this was not deep stack play)
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I think pf is bad full ring mostly because players don't like to fold, so a lot of the equity you might have from being able to outplay him post flop is lost when he can't fold middle pair, and 23o is just so hard to do anything with as far as making hands. I think you know that though, so if you want to spend a raise calling with 23o thats personal choice. I'd wait for something slightly better like 96s or junk like that but pf isn't that important long term imo.I'm guessing you're mostly asking if you should be calling for the gutter. I think that is a really bad call. Most players like to be getting somewhere around 15-1 for stacks to call for a gutter as a general rule. So he would need to have something like 550 behind minimum. Plus the board is paired so you could be drawing dead, he has a couple of extra outs to suckout the boat if you do hit the 5, and there is another guy behind you so you aren't even closing the action. All those things put together make it a clear fold imo.Also, hi :)Mark

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I think pf is bad full ring mostly because players don't like to fold, so a lot of the equity you might have from being able to outplay him post flop is lost when he can't fold middle pair, and 23o is just so hard to do anything with as far as making hands. I think you know that though, so if you want to spend a raise calling with 23o thats personal choice. I'd wait for something slightly better like 96s or junk like that but pf isn't that important long term imo.I'm guessing you're mostly asking if you should be calling for the gutter. I think that is a really bad call. Most players like to be getting somewhere around 15-1 for stacks to call for a gutter as a general rule. So he would need to have something like 550 behind minimum. Plus the board is paired so you could be drawing dead, he has a couple of extra outs to suckout the boat if you do hit the 5, and there is another guy behind you so you aren't even closing the action. All those things put together make it a clear fold imo.Also, hi :)Mark
great post mark ~my call was purely based on the player and the fact he posted UTG and then goes on the open - which i felt was a pretty fishy move - i also felt that the player had something like k-10 suited or Q-J off ~ something in that range and i felt i could call on the button .my debate with Vick12 was my preflop play because he would not let me get to flop/postflop play - the float on the flop i guess i didnt have the IO to call thanks mark
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Woops, I feel bad I didn't expand on my post the first time around.

you sir are mistaken and by saying some is not profitable "EVER" you lack the theory needed for deep stack play. ( this was not deep stack play)
It is not profitable. It's just not. And I completely do not understand the logic of telling me I can't play deep stacked games if I don't call raises with 32o (especially when the situation you are in isn't deep stacked) simply because you see some wigger kid sit down, which automatically makes him a fish in some bizarro-world of tells. Everyone posts in live games, it doesn't necessarily make them fish, it just makes them impatient.I totally don't understand the logic of playing back at a fish with 32o and a then a gutshot if you get the hint that he is a fish. Isn't it easier to wait for any sort of decent hand than try to run a guy down with 4 outs (at best) without the necessary immediate odds or implied odds?One last thing: Saying a few of the reasons for calling preflop are "I'm leaving soon," and "Time charge is coming," are pathetic. You have no reason to call preflop even if you "see" the kid as a donkey before you even play a single hand with him.
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Let's break this down with all info assuming everything that you read is completely correct. You are calling a raise from a person who you think is a donkey with 23 off suit. I am getting from your conversation that you think this guy is going to be a loose raising lagtard because of the post/raise UTG. I only see two possible scenarios for the call with 23o. 1. Hypothetically, having position on your villain you will miss your hand (a majority of the time) but be able to out play him by betting him off a hand that doesn't connect. 2. You will hit a miracle and because of the implied odds he is giving by playing poorly is worth the initial call because he will pay you off with his entire stack when you hit. Now the problem with this is, given the read of your opponent, you will not usually succeed in the 1st (and more often) situation because of his apparent inability to fold when bet into. Which is exactly the same tendency that allows situation 2 to work so well.So let's say for arguments sake you will be in situation 1 90% of the time and Situation 2 10%. As you can see against this opponent it is not worth the call to hit the miracle because most of the time you will be in the situation where you are trying to run a calling/re-raising station off his hand. Now against a better player who knows how to fold it is actually more profitable to play the 23o in this spot because they won't pay you the implied odds when you hit but you will be able to run them off their hand more often. It was a good read on your opponent and exactly what you thought would happen if you hit, happened. But it is more important to recognize that you are rarely gonna hit the longshots against these opponents and you might spend too much money in the long run trying to get there. Instead, bet for value against these guys (which you obviously did when you hit your hand) and save the 23o moves for better players that will respect your bets. That is why this play is considered -ev.

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Marchoine,I believe the point everyone is trying to make is that against weaker opponents, you want to be playing your hands for value, instead of playing into their loose style. That's not to say most of us at some point or another haven't played a hand like 23o hoping to stack a villain, but we're just trying to tell you that in the long run, if you want to punish this sort of player - raise his limps for value, instead of calling his raises to outplay him.

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That's not to say most of us at some point or another haven't played a hand like 23o hoping to stack a villain, but we're just trying to tell you that in the long run, if you want to punish this sort of player - raise his limps for value, instead of calling his raises to outplay him.
We have?
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but he won the hand, didn't he?
Woops, I thought he lost, haha. Results > life.Well played sir.
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I have played with my fair amount of "wiggers" at the casino and they yes usually stroll in on there cell phones with there sideways KC hat since I live in KC. And they are always aggressive and usually loose all there money and overplay everything. So yea I would wait for a better spot to play with these kind of players besides 23o but i'm just going to agree with what everyone else has said.

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Given his bet sizes I think he might have under played it. Especially with 2 callers going to the flop. The only hand he really would ever put you on that beats him on the turn is a set of 5s. But he asked you if you had a 4 so while the guy probably deserved to lose his money I don't think I would ever try to bust a tard with 23.

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the guy still over played AK
Technically he underplayed it since he's getting calls from gutshots and underpairs. The only thing he did wrong was call a turn reraise where it's fairly clear he's beat.
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To OP I never said he overplayed AK, I said in my experiences with these type of players they usually overplay everything and thats how they lose all there money.

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nothing feels better then sending someone for a walk to the atm after the first hand
After all, this is the real goal in poker. Nothing to do with maximizing our returns, or anything like that! WIN POTS!!!!! ALL IN!!!!
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