DanielNegreanu, on Monday, December 31st, 2007, 4:40 AM, said:
The day I started folding Q8 from the small blind is the day I quit poker. Seriously, never going to happen unless it's a misclick! Just being in the hand gives you a chance to win it, you don't have to flop anything at all: Example: flop is 7-4-2 and I check my Q-8, it gets checked around. Turn is a 4, I bet 150... and win the pot a very high percentage of the time. Balancing out bluffs like that, bluff catching, while ALSO minimizing your losses when you are trapped is how you make junk hands profitable OOP. A Q-Q-4 flop in a limped pot simply isn't a "dream flop" at all since it's dangerous. A flop like 8-4-2 is closer to a dream flop, or even better Q-8-4 with two of a suit, etc. I can't imagine folding while getting 7 to 1 is a good idea, position or not. As for my play of the hand, also notice the bet size the limper chose on the river. It screams of a value bet. Of course, if he knew that I'd think that it would be a good amount to bet as a bluff, but the idea of a bluff in this situation is very unlikely. Possible, but not likely enough to call getting 2.6 to 1 even though I could also beat AA or KK. Check calling the flop and leading the turn isn't a "bad play" at all and it could give you more information. Having said that, my choice is an even better play IMO as I'll still get information on the turn by checking. If either player bets the turn in that situation making a habit of folding will save you money in the long run.
Daniel,I understand that you're getting awesome pot odds, but do you really think that you're going to win enough pots to make this profitable? There is usually a slightly worried feeling about anyone who limps UTG in a FR game actually having a big hand, and then there's still the LP position player to worry about. Nobody is doubting your postflop skill here, but it just seems that it will be a very hard hand to play profitable against 3 other opponents when we are out of position.There is something to be said about image plays and stuff, but if you're gonna play trash from the SB, play 23o. Play a hand that is never dominated. Play a hand that can make a good winning hand. We're completing here with a hand that can never flop a flush, can flop the 2nd nut straight on JT9 or 1 card straight draws and we're not even loving it when we flop top trips because Qx hands are so likely for our opponents to have.So, what the hell are we looking for then? Are we really playing this hand OOP, hoping for a board that misses 3 other players and none of them decide to stab at it and we're able to pick up the pot? Yeah, sometimes we flop 2nd pair and we know we're good. Sometimes we find weakness in our opponent's line and raise to take the pot away. I can do that with any hand. Give me 56o here all day because I can flop more solid hands and I can still prey on the those weak lines the same way that I would with this hand.I am fine with you saying "sometimes I play it and sometimes I don't" but for you to say that the day that you fold Q8o from the SB is the day you quit poker, what do you think you're giving up by folding a hand that weak in a position that weak?