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temporary nuts or redraw?


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Greetings all, lurking awhile, first post, glad to be here, yadayadayada.I have a PL Omaha question for the forum.I consider myself a prety good Omaha player, cashing in nearly every MTT I play on Stars, and I have several top 3 finishes with a win as well.On a tourney hand recently, I limped with suited AAKx in late position, with 1 ace suited. 5 players see the flop.On the flop, a third A comes down with Q 10 and 2 hearts, giving me top set, nut flush draw, and a straight draw.1st 2 players to act check, 3rd bets the pot, I raise the pot thinking if he has KJ, God bless him. Player on the button folds, first 2 fold, original raiser just calls.Turn comes a rag, and knowing he just called my bet, I doubt he has KJ as he goes all in on the turn, I call and sure enough he had a set of Q's. I take down the pot, eliminating him.However, after the hand, the player on the button claims he folded KJ after my re-raise, saying he couldn't justify playing his bare KJ without a redraw.He had the nuts on the flop, and he folds it??He later said "temporary nuts" don't mean anything in PLO without a redraw.To be blunt...what the hell is he talking about? You have the best hand, you put all your money in, right?Thanks in advance for any feedback. I do really enjoy the forum and am glad to now be a true part of it.Cheers,Mike

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What I think he meant was that he didn't have a draw to a better hand. He probably put one of you two on a set, and realizing that if the board paired his straight would be screwed, or if one of you two were drawing to a flush and it hit he'd be screwed, he decided not to get involved with the temporary nuts.-Shawn K.

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I mean maybe you can justify it but i couldn't throw it away. Lets say at worst you are dodging the board pairing which is ten outs and nine cards to make a flush. And any king or jack that isn't the same suit of the two on the board and there is probably a split pot. You still are the favorite to win. Maybe he was putting someone on the straight already with a flush or boat draw. Thinking of it this way at best you can tie and your opponet or opponets have at least nine or ten more outs where they can take the whole pot.

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What everyone else said. Plus a couple of things of note. Heads up you were a favorite against a straight with two cards to come. Also, a set against two straights is a favorite with two cards to come. Both of those were highly likely so he was right to fold his straight.A set with flush draw versus straight:http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1003917pokenum -o kd js 2c 3c - ah as 4h 5c -- ad qh th Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ad Qh Thcards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVJs 3c 2c Kd 280 34.15 540 65.85 0 0.00 0.341As 5c Ah 4h 540 65.85 280 34.15 0 0.00 0.659Two straights against a set:http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1003737pokenum -o kd js 2c 3c - ad as 4c 5c - kc jc 6c 7c -- ah qd ts Omaha Hi: 666 enumerated boards containing Ts Qd Ahcards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVJs 3c 2c Kd 0 0.00 263 39.49 403 60.51 0.303As 5c 4c Ad 263 39.49 403 60.51 0 0.00 0.395Kc Jc 7c 6c 0 0.00 263 39.49 403 60.51 0.303

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i haven't even read the replies, but the guy is damn right.i fold a bare K-J there to a pot bet and a pot raise EVERY TIME.this is not hold 'em--the nuts aren't always ahead.this is the biggest reason why PLO experts CRUSH the PLO fish--the fish don't understand the dynamics of the game and how vastly different equity can be.on a flop of A :D Q :) 10 :D A :) A :) K :) 2 :club: - 65%K :D J :) 2 :) 3 :) - 30%Tie - 5%this is just one example.redraws are EVERYTHING in this game.understand?aseemp.s. this is the biggest reason that flopped straights and flopped sets are HUGE moneylosers for fish in this game. sets become drawing hands on any coordinated flop and especially on any coordinated turn, and flopped straights are horrendous if you're drawing to two blanks (you have no redraws). don't overplay those things unless you have redraws, and you'll see your winrate go way up. a bare straight on that flop is horrendous against two aggressors--the player was way correct to fold it every time.

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I mean maybe you can justify it but i couldn't throw it away.  Lets say at worst you are dodging the board pairing which is ten outs and nine cards to make a flush.
18-19 outs makes that draw a favorite.
And any king or jack that isn't the same suit of the two on the board and there is probably a split pot.
why would you be okay with a split pot?
You still are the favorite to win.
WAY wrong.
Maybe he was putting someone on the straight already with a flush or boat draw.  Thinking of it this way at best you can tie and your opponet or opponets have at least nine or ten more outs where they can take the whole pot.
if they each have 9 or 10 outs, that's a combined 19 outs against you with two cards to come--you are an underdog.not to sound offensive in the least bit, but you really need to play and understand the game more before you can consider yourself a pretty good omaha player.good luck,aseem
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