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Last night playing at the local card room, we're nine handed and most of the players at the table are predictable, loose and there to gamble. UTG ($20) Limps $2Folded to SB.SB ($400) raises $5 to $7BB (Hero 8,8) ($165) callsUTG re-raises all-in.SB callsBB raises $100SB calls.Flop: AQ9SB bets $50I had pocket 8s.What do you do?

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Fold. nevermind...i didn't read it clearly. What was the UTG's all-in worth?ugh...early mondays...ok, so UTG goes all in for $20, SB calls, you make it $100 (for some silly reason, probably to isolate the UTG....by the way you lose the right to call others loose and gamblers....) and the side pot is called, side pot being worth $160 to the main being worth something like $60.You risked half your stack into two raises. You should know at least one of them is probably good for an ace. Let's say they are totally crazy and played that way with JT or something. We could also guess that maybe one of them has a pocket pair, chances that it's higher or lower than yours at that point is probably better than 50/50. You still have the problem that you got a flop with 3 over cards on you, so even someone playing K9 has you dominated here.First you have to ask, do you think you have the best hand on the flop, and also consider, you don't have any draws (save an 8, because if you do fill the straight with a JT running the last two, you have the bottom end of a str8 and are more than likely dead in the water), and ask if you need to defend that $100 you put in the pot.Personally, I think you have to play it. Even though your dead to rights, you put yourself in that mess, time to pay the piper (or maybe you hit your out, no one improves and he pays you) but you kind of stuck yourself here. You can only fold if you think you can get yourself back together enough in this session to cut a lose or get back to even.

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Fold.  nevermind...i didn't read it clearly.  What was the UTG's all-in worth?ugh...early mondays...ok, so UTG goes all in for $20, SB calls, you make it $100 (for some silly reason, probably to isolate the UTG....by the way you lose the right to call others loose and gamblers....) and the side pot is called, side pot being worth $160 to the main being worth something like $60.
Correct.  I am gambling, but I was willing to take the chance that the SB would miss the flop and fold to my flop bet.  I definitely made a mistake here by not leaving myself enough chips to force him to fold if the flop was all little cards, but with $60 in the pot, my goal was to force SB out and isolate the BB, who I thought was probably weaker, A2-A6.
You risked half your stack into two raises. You should know at least one of them is probably good for an ace. Let's say they are totally crazy and played that way with JT or something. We could also guess that maybe one of them has a pocket pair, chances that it's higher or lower than yours at that point is probably better than 50/50. You still have the problem that you got a flop with 3 over cards on you, so even someone playing K9 has you dominated here.
I was almost certain they both had an ace and the SB had a hand like A10-AK.
First you have to ask, do you think you have the best hand on the flop, and also consider, you don't have any draws (save an 8, because if you do fill the straight with a JT running the last two, you have the bottom end of a str8 and are more than likely dead in the water), and ask if you need to defend that $100 you put in the pot.Personally, I think you have to play it. Even though your dead to rights, you put yourself in that mess, time to pay the piper (or maybe you hit your out, no one improves and he pays you) but you kind of stuck yourself here. You can only fold if you think you can get yourself back together enough in this session to cut a lose or get back to even.
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I'm having trouble reading the history. "8-close parentheses" is that insipid sunglasses smiley. Check "disable smilies" to fix it.Did you call off $100 preflop, or re-raise $100 preflop out of a $165-stack to isolate the all in?Either way, I think you have to fold for the flop bet from $50, even in this big a pot. Also, either way, I think your preflop isolation or call wasn't very brilliant.If you've got one person all-in, and another person called off $100 more preflop, you've got to put someone on "better than a pair of 8's" with an A and a Q on the flop. That means you're 2-outing if you're behind, and making a move is pointless or suicidal.I'm not a huge fan of isolating that big with your 8's if that's what you did. This is a cash game, not a tournament, and you're playing a draw to a set/boat to win a huge pot. Just call the 20, let the other guy in, and play it from there rather than raise off all your stack.

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I'm having trouble reading the history. "8-close parentheses" is that insipid sunglasses smiley. Check "disable smilies" to fix it.Did you call off $100 preflop, or re-raise $100 preflop out of a $165-stack to isolate the all in?Either way, I think you have to fold for the flop bet from $50, even in this big a pot. Also, either way, I think your preflop isolation or call wasn't very brilliant.If you've got one person all-in, and another person called off $100 more preflop, you've got to put someone on "better than a pair of 8's" with an A and a Q on the flop. That means you're 2-outing if you're behind, and making a move is pointless or suicidal.I'm not a huge fan of isolating that big with your 8's if that's what you did. This is a cash game, not a tournament, and you're playing a draw to a set/boat to win a huge pot. Just call the 20, let the other guy in, and play it from there rather than raise off all your stack.
Sorry about that. Here's how the action went.UTG limps $2SB raises to $7BB (me with 88) call the $7UTG goes all in for his last $17 or soSB just calls.I put him on AK-AQ or worse and think there is an excellent chance they are sharing an ace and will fold if they miss the flop.The raise to $100 was too much, no doubt. $50 would've done it and given me the same information.
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My point is I don't think this is a great situation to isolate.Even a raise to 50 is a third of your stack, and your hand cana) easily get out-floppedb) you're committing yourself to a showdown with a vulnerable handWhy not just call the $17? If SB is a donk, put the big bets relative to your stack in on a 7-3-2 flop, or my favorite, the AK8 flop. Yes, you are probably ahead here preflop, but if you push this edge now, you can really get screwed later.By calling, the pot is smaller, so you can use your position on SB to make a move if you like. If not, you can just check/fold. Any move you make wouldn't endanger your stack the way isolating here would.If I had QQ or maybe JJ I'd think about isolating. I don't think you're passing up much by not isolating with 88 here though.

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My point is I don't think this is a great situation to isolate.Even a raise to 50 is a third of your stack, and your hand cana) easily get out-floppedB) you're committing yourself to a showdown with a vulnerable handWhy not just call the $17? If SB is a donk, put the big bets relative to your stack in on a 7-3-2 flop, or my favorite, the AK8 flop. Yes, you are probably ahead here preflop, but if you push this edge now, you can really get screwed later.By calling, the pot is smaller, so you can use your position on SB to make a move if you like. If not, you can just check/fold. Any move you make wouldn't endanger your stack the way isolating here would.If I had QQ or maybe JJ I'd think about isolating. I don't think you're passing up much by not isolating with 88 here though.
I know the SB will fold if he misses the flop, which I'm failry sure he will 70% of the time here. The raise to $100 was an attempt to isolate the UTG player. I'll agree that since UTG is all-in, I'm basically a coin-flop, but there is now an extra $25 equity in the pot. The raise to $100 was too large, but I was ok with the fact that the SB called, considering I felt I positioned myself well to win a large pot when I had the best of it.
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Am I the only one who thinks folding pre flop is accurate here; we're playing for a sidepot in which we're up a huge stack and just the call for 7 dollars with the UTG to act does not merit 8's a good enough hand to call anyway?Also, aren't small pp's here (88 is pretty small, Lindros is not) super crappy 3 handed?

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77-TT are my favorite hands to play in NL because they're so flexible... and their implied odds are just as good as 22-66.Preflop, the first call is $5 in a $11 pot in position on the raiser.The second call is $10 more to see $40, if I counted right... still in position with 88 on the raiser who has a deeper stack. I think it's a pretty straightforward "just-call."I have no problem folding to SB's flop bet on the AQx flop... and things get really interesting on 7-3-2 flops or even something like a T-6-2 flop. If you make a move on either of those flops, by just calling preflop, you're not overextending yourself... and you're leaving room in your stack to be able to make this move. Our implied odds on the preflop call are as deep as SB's stack.

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If my read is correct and my assumption is right that he'll fold if he misses the flop. I'm about 70% favorite here. My read was that he had two big cards and was very likely to be sharing an ace with the UTG player. He led out for $50 on the flop and I folded. He turned over AQo.The UTG player turned up with 8s10s. the turn was a 10 and the river was a Q. I lost the hand, but despite the fact that I lost and I now think raising to $100 was too much, I think I played the hand very well and put myself in position to win a big pot.I appreciate all the feedback. My read on the two guys involved in this hand is that they are there to gamble and do not really think about the odds, percentages, etc.Here's another question. How do you like the "call" from the SB? Do you call here? Tim

Am I the only one who thinks folding pre flop is accurate here; we're playing for a sidepot in which we're up a huge stack and just the call for 7 dollars with the UTG to act does not merit 8's a good enough hand to call anyway?Also, aren't small pp's here (88 is pretty small, Lindros is not) super crappy 3 handed?
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If you have 88 and two villains have AX and AY, where X and Y are both greater than 8 but not equal to each other, I think you have somewhere around 40% preflop equity 3-handed... it's definitely not 70%. Don't forget that the all-in guy gets to see the river for free. Heads up against AY, if you think one of them is killing a card for you, you're still only about 60/40 heads up against him. Yes, it's an equity edge, but your post-flop visibility can quickly go to sh!t on a flop like that.

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If you have 88 and two villains have AX and AY, where X and Y are both greater than 8 but not equal to each other, I think you have somewhere around 40% preflop equity 3-handed... it's definitely not 70%. Don't forget that the all-in guy gets to see the river for free. Heads up against AY, if you think one of them is killing a card for you, you're still only about 60/40 heads up against him. Yes, it's an equity edge, but your post-flop visibility can quickly go to sh!t on a flop like that.
You are correct, I'm 40% to win with 88 against AX and AY if both X and Y are greater than 8. I'd say it's 50/50 the UTG player has complete crap of Ax where x is lower than 8. However, since the SB called the flop raise, I'm much greater than 50% to win the side pot assuming he folds when he misses the flop. I did not think he would call and figured I'd be coin flipping with UTG with some extra equity in the pot.
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Am I the only one who thinks folding pre flop is accurate here; we're playing for a sidepot in which we're up a huge stack and just the call for 7 dollars with the UTG to act does not merit 8's a good enough hand to call anyway?Also, aren't small pp's here (88 is pretty small, Lindros is not) super crappy 3 handed?
Agreed. I wouldnt have even thought twice, especially three handed knowing im at risk for all of my chips with a low pair when i could be dominated.I dont depend on spiking an 8 thats for sure. Cuz i would never find one.
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Am I the only one who thinks folding pre flop is accurate here; we're playing for a sidepot in which we're up a huge stack and just the call for 7 dollars with the UTG to act does not merit 8's a good enough hand to call anyway?Also, aren't small pp's here (88 is pretty small, Lindros is not) super crappy 3 handed?
Agreed. I wouldnt have even thought twice, especially three handed knowing im at risk for all of my chips with a low pair when i could be dominated.I dont depend on spiking an 8 thats for sure. Cuz i would never find one.
If you're saying fold to the $7 raise in the BB, I'll let you know there is no freaking way am I folding 8s here. I know if the flop comes Ax8, I'm doubling through this sucker. I can lay down 8s when I miss, but for $5 I am definitely calling. If I hit a set and he happens to have an overset or makes a straight or something, that's a risk I'm willing to take. I am as certain as you can be at the poker table, that the SB does not have AA or KK when he just called the all-in from the UTG player, so I even think the raise from the BB was correct, it may have been too large, but I'm still happy that he called. I just don't see how you can fold 88 here to a raise from the SB, that would be playing super tight.
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Am I the only one who thinks folding pre flop is accurate here; we're playing for a sidepot in which we're up a huge stack and just the call for 7 dollars with the UTG to act does not merit 8's a good enough hand to call anyway?Also, aren't small pp's here (88 is pretty small, Lindros is not) super crappy 3 handed?
Agreed. I wouldnt have even thought twice, especially three handed knowing im at risk for all of my chips with a low pair when i could be dominated.I dont depend on spiking an 8 thats for sure. Cuz i would never find one.
If you're saying fold to the $7 raise in the BB, I'll let you know there is no freaking way am I folding 8s here. I know if the flop comes Ax8, I'm doubling through this sucker. I can lay down 8s when I miss, but for $5 I am definitely calling. If I hit a set and he happens to have an overset or makes a straight or something, that's a risk I'm willing to take. I am as certain as you can be at the poker table, that the SB does not have AA or KK when he just called the all-in from the UTG player, so I even think the raise from the BB was correct, it may have been too large, but I'm still happy that he called. I just don't see how you can fold 88 here to a raise from the SB, that would be playing super tight.
Perhaps i missed something because i didnt take the time to read a portion of this thread. There was a raise to $7 BEFORE the UTG moved all in? Correct? Help me understand the hand a bit better because im intrigued.Edited: Okay, I see the UTG had 20$. I might fold my 8's if there is 1 or more calls to this $20 reraise. Sure, if you get lucky and spike an 8, your more than likely going to get paid off. Very tough to call another bet postflop if the flop comes out A high minus an 8.
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I don't fold 88 here.But I also dont re-raise PF to $100. That's just bad.If these guys are that bad go for the trap on the flop w a set.Making sets are going to make you the most money in No Limit Cash games, no doubt.They will make you more than your AA and KK hands. Smooth call and hit that set.- Jordan

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I don't fold 88 here.But I also dont re-raise PF to $100. That's just bad.If these guys are that bad go for the trap on the flop w a set.Making sets are going to make you the most money in No Limit Cash games, no doubt.They will make you more than your AA and KK hands. Smooth call and hit that set.- Jordan
I felt very strongly the SB had big cards. I lost a hand earlier to these exact players when I raised with AK. Once called with AJo and the other with Kh9h. The flop was all hearts with a J and the donk with K9 won a big pot. These guys are horrible. I was ahead and knew he'd fold if he missed the flop. I don't mind putting in $100 here pre-flop although admittedly betting less would've been less risky and he was a likely to fold to a $40-50 re-raise as he was to $100. My goal was to isolate UTG and get the equity in there in the coinflip. I'd been playing tight and can't believe he called with AQ. He told me, he was "hoping" that I had KK. Seriously...How do you like his call there with AQ? Would you make that call against a tight-aggressive player?
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Last night playing at the local card room, we're nine handed and most of the players at the table are predictable, loose and there to gamble. UTG ($20) Limps $2Folded to SB.SB ($400) raises $5 to $7BB (Hero 8,8) ($165) callsUTG re-raises all-in.SB callsBB raises $100SB calls.Flop: AQ9SB bets $50I had pocket 8s.What do you do?
Smooth call preflop, check/fold the flop?It's really not that exciting to have 88 with three overcards.
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Smooth call preflop, check/fold the flop?It's really not that exciting to have 88 with three overcards.
I had no choice but to fold, but I was most pleased with creating a favorable situation for myself to win a big pot based on the actions and stupidity of the other players. If that flop comes all rags, I basically risked $100 that the flop would come without an AKQ. I was absolutely sure the SB had AK or AQ and that he was weak enough to check it if he missed the flop, so even if it came with a K, I know he would've still checked it and my bet would've forced him out.Maybe it's not a great play, but so many times you flop a set and you get sucked out on my a flush draw, the odds here are almost the same as a flush draw hitting on you. I think it's a good play if you are totally confident in your reads.
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How do you like his call there with AQ? Would you make that call against a tight-aggressive player?
-sigh-Obviously he's a moron for calling off $100 OOP with AQo. That doesn't make you somehow more righteous for your brilliant preflop isolation play of 2/3rds your stack.At the end of the day you're still out 100 bucks. Quit trying to accuse stupid players of playing stupid when they beat you. Learn from it, adapt, and break them. Call the all-in, flop an 8, and THEN make him call $100.And if you don't flop an 8, quietly check/fold.
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How do you like his call there with AQ? Would you make that call against a tight-aggressive player?
-sigh-Obviously he's a moron for calling off $100 OOP with AQo. That doesn't make you somehow more righteous for your brilliant preflop isolation play of 2/3rds your stack.At the end of the day you're still out 100 bucks. Quit trying to accuse stupid players of playing stupid when they beat you. Learn from it, adapt, and break them. Call the all-in, flop an 8, and THEN make him call $100.And if you don't flop an 8, quietly check/fold.
Exactly.
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How do you like his call there with AQ? Would you make that call against a tight-aggressive player?
-sigh-Obviously he's a moron for calling off $100 OOP with AQo. That doesn't make you somehow more righteous for your brilliant preflop isolation play of 2/3rds your stack.At the end of the day you're still out 100 bucks. Quit trying to accuse stupid players of playing stupid when they beat you. Learn from it, adapt, and break them. Call the all-in, flop an 8, and THEN make him call $100.And if you don't flop an 8, quietly check/fold.
I'm not blaming him, just trying to justify my read. The guys a moron, my read was right and I created a $200 pot where I was a 2/3 favorite based on my read. I think it's a weapon to add to your arsenal against bad players.The pre-flop raise was too much. No doubt about that, but I still like raising given my read.
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How do you like his call there with AQ? Would you make that call against a tight-aggressive player?
-sigh-Obviously he's a moron for calling off $100 OOP with AQo. That doesn't make you somehow more righteous for your brilliant preflop isolation play of 2/3rds your stack.At the end of the day you're still out 100 bucks. Quit trying to accuse stupid players of playing stupid when they beat you. Learn from it, adapt, and break them. Call the all-in, flop an 8, and THEN make him call $100.And if you don't flop an 8, quietly check/fold.
Couldnt agree more TJ
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