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Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is UTG+2 with [4c], [4h]. UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.Flop: (13 SB) [3d], [4s], [2d] (4 players)SB bets, MP2 calls, SB calls, UTG calls.Turn: (10.50 BB) [Ts] (4 players)SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, SB calls, UTG calls.River: (14.50 BB) [5c] (4 players)SB bets, UTG calls, Hero folds, MP2 calls.Final Pot: 17.50 BBagreed? only thing i think is iffy was my preflop call

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no.reverse implied tilt odds of seeing SB on a bluff with king high and top pair winning the pot is just way too high.you should pay off sometimes. this is one of those times.aseem

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Um, 4-straight hit the board with three other people in and SB woke up on the river, UTG has already called?I am folding this based on reads. Sometimes it isn't always about the math. I put SB on an Ace or a 6 and UTG on an Ace.Bad beat though. You can make folds like this sometimes, if you have a good read on your opponents. The fact there are three other people in the hand, someone has bet, someone has called, and Hero doesn't finish this action makes this a great fold.Good hand, Matt.

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to extend on what guine said...what can i beat that 3 bets preflop and then wakes up on the river....for a normal 3bet we usually assume that the standard hands are: ak, aces, kings,queens, and possibly aq, and jacksof these hands we can beat kings queens and jacks but heres the question..who wakes up on the river with kings queens or jacks on a 4 straight board? especially against a guy who has shown that he has a solid hand? i think phil ivey said it best when he said "sometimes you just know ur beat" I will say that the 6 is very unlikely from a 3 bet preflop..but that the sb has an ace is probably 95% or more of the time and utg just calling tells me theres no way i have a chance in this handin a heads up pot yes i think its worth an easy call...but against 3 others nah

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in a heads up pot yes i think its worth an easy call...but against 3 others nah
UTG just called. I really don't think you have to worry about him. MP may be an issue, but I'm willing to risk that he's not in such a large pot.
of these hands we can beat kings queens and jacks but heres the question..who wakes up on the river with kings queens or jacks on a 4 straight board? especially against a guy who has shown that he has a solid hand?
SB could be bluffing on that scare card. He could have an ace. He could also have KK/QQ/JJ. You have shown that you have a strong hand. He may figure that the only chance he has to win is to bluff at that scare card. Can you really be over 90% sure that he's not bluffing here?
I am folding this based on reads. Sometimes it isn't always about the math. I put SB on an Ace or a 6 and UTG on an Ace.
Reads are all about math. They are simply a probability that you give to a villians range of hands. Also, your reads are way off here, especially against unknowns. SB is far more likely to have KK than a hand that contains a 6.I played a hand the other day where I was in a far worse position than hero in this hand. I flopped a set on a 2 flush and 2 straight board. The pot was 4-handed and I had the lead going into the river. The river put 4 to a straight and 4 to a flush on the board. UTG lead the river, and got 2 overcalls. I folded and UTG showed a rivered 2 pair and took the pot. If unknowns are capable of this, they are capable of bluffing/donking this river too. Don't fold.
reverse implied tilt odds of seeing SB on a bluff with king high and top pair winning the pot is just way too high.
This is important. Calling only costs you a fraction of a BB at most. Folding a winner will cost you a lot if you keep playing.
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I am folding this based on reads.
really?what reads are those?
Sometimes it isn't always about the math.
actually, folding probably *is* based on math. calling is the action that most likely ignores the math.in other words, you might actually be more than 94% sure that you're beat (how sure you need to be to make folding breakeven). but, add in the metagame issues of tilting, of your table image (capping every street then folding to a single bet on the river when a scare card comes), and all the other non-math-based factors, and i think folding is quite bad.
I put SB on an Ace or a 6 and UTG on an Ace.
really?it's pretty amazing how you can narrow the hand range of an unknown (no stats/reads given) so strongly based on a total of about four actions in one hand.maybe you should go to vegas and employ your monstrous hand-reading skills.(i'm feeling quite sardonic lately, don't take offense to the ultra-dry humor above. :-) )
The fact there are three other people in the hand, someone has bet, someone has called, and Hero doesn't finish this action makes this a great fold.
let's get one thing straight.the fact that we're overcalling is *completely* irrelevant this hand.that's only an issue when the only thing you can beat is a bluff--then you should fold if it turns out you're overcalling. here, any hand that doesn't raise probably doesn't have a straight, and you beat almost every non-straight hand out there.see?aseem
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matt, i don't think there's much more to this debate.if you want to keep making amazing laydowns in huge pots, you keep doing that.and please don't refer to phil ivey in the future. you realize this is:1. online2. party poker3. $1/$24. unknown villiansi've no more to say. good luck.aseemp.s. let me add one thing: it's hugely obvious that either a) SB did indeed have a straight, and you're being obnoxiously results-oriented, or B) you made a bad read, so you folded the winner, and you're looking for a pat on the back to tell you that the fold was correct in the long run. if neither is the case, i apologize.

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matt, i don't think there's much more to this debate.if you want to keep making amazing laydowns in huge pots, you keep doing that.and please don't refer to phil ivey in the future. you realize this is:1. online2. party poker3. $1/$24. unknown villiansi've no more to say. good luck.aseemp.s. let me add one thing: it's hugely obvious that either a) SB did indeed have a straight, and you're being obnoxiously results-oriented, or B) you made a bad read, so you folded the winner, and you're looking for a pat on the back to tell you that the fold was correct in the long run. if neither is the case, i apologize.
first off i wasnt referring to having anywhere near the skill that ivey has..i was referring to the fact that there are times u know ur beat and you make a laydown b/c of it..im sorry if u cant make an obvious laydown but well maybe you can read a book on it2nd if you feel that calling when you know uve lost is a good thing more power to you...i dont like to waste bets when i know im behind3rd my read on the sb and utg was correct as both including the mp all had an ace..but i already knew that b/c it was obvious enough4th to quote you...it is 1/2...people arent going to think they can bluff from sb against 3 opponents..maybe at 5/10 or 10/20 that works..nto at 1/2 and you know that5th as for your comment on him having an ace or 6...like i said..i never put him on a 6 not at all...my initial read was aces or kings on him...but quick thinking that all opponents are stupid and think about what likey hands he has... and we will assume for your sake that he has kings, queens, jacks 1. why does he not 3 bet the flop? it is a 4 high flop against me who showed no strength preflop...kings, queens, jacks are way ahead of all but a few likely hands so anybody with a king,queen, jack is likely going to three bet...seems pretty easy to see 2. turn is still not a scare card for kings, queens, jacks...the 10 could give a set to pkt 10s..usually you will see a raise with 10s preflop..but eh..ill give you the benefit of the doubt 3. Ok now the sb wakes up with 4 to a straight on the board...so lets get the striaght...he has shown no strength at all post flop...(in my eyes kings, queens, jacks are out...sorry if you are naive in thinking they are still live)..so whats that leave...a set of 10s? not likely since there was no c/r on the turn...so what are we left with? hmmmm not a very tough decisionu are right aseem...there isnt much left to discuss. You said it right early on..there are times to call...but this isnt one...and surprise surprise he showed an ace as with the other 3...did i make a big laydown? not in my eyes..it was a fairly routine laydown that i would make most times based off the way the hand played...like i said...i dont like to give my money away on obvious hands...but if u do..well i cant help you
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i was being extremely sarcastic when i said "you win."you guys put waaay too much weight on like four actions from an unknown.keep making pro laydowns in big pots. i have nothing more to add to this discussion, it sickens me.aseem

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i was being extremely sarcastic when i said "you win."
Duh.
haha. i wasn't sure if you missed the sarcsam and thought i changed my mind after reading matt's reply.aseem
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I'd like to chime in here if I may. I think a relevant point that's being lost on aseem is that UTG could well be calling on the river with an ace and the straight. I know I would, as I wouldn't want to knock out 2-pair/sets, and I lose less if I'm up against a 6.

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I'd like to chime in here if I may. I think a relevant point that's being lost on aseem is that UTG could well be calling on the river with an ace and the straight. I know I would, as I wouldn't want to knock out 2-pair/sets, and I lose less if I'm up against a 6.
I think the relevant point that's being lost on you is that he is much more likely to be calling with a worse hand.
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I'd like to chime in here if I may. I think a relevant point that's being lost on aseem is that UTG could well be calling on the river with an ace and the straight. I know I would, as I wouldn't want to knock out 2-pair/sets, and I lose less if I'm up against a 6.
I think the relevant point that's being lost on you is that he is much more likely to be calling with a worse hand.
What makes you think he doesn't want overcalls? His call screams ace to me for the reasons filesharer already spelled out.
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keep making pro laydowns in big pots. i have nothing more to add to this discussion, it sickens me.aseem
Aseem,you really care that much about other people's play.Take a break if you do, seriously.Your attitude is Smashlike. But not as funny. Aseem..if you saw SB's Ace..would you fold?Serious question, are the Meta-Game issues that significant to overcome 100% probability that you are beat. I know it's not 100%..but if it were?thanks, Good discussion.FWIW, I reluctantly call - Not because I think it's the best play, but the one that keeps me from tilting just in case. I think UTG is not raising in order to get over calls, duh.I was caught between two riasers on a river like this once..and I had the Ace. So did one other player, while the winner had a 6. That sucked. Not relevant, though. :-)
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I think you have to consider an A to be by far the most likely holding for UTG. I'd maybe put it at 60%. The probability of SB having it has to be pretty close to 100%. Sometimes you just know you're beaten. I'm not saying I routinely make these kinds of laydowns, but I have done in the past.

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I'd like to chime in here if I may. I think a relevant point that's being lost on aseem is that UTG could well be calling on the river with an ace and the straight. I know I would, as I wouldn't want to knock out 2-pair/sets, and I lose less if I'm up against a 6.
I think the relevant point that's being lost on you is that he is much more likely to be calling with a worse hand.
and what range of hands would that be? remember...mp was the initial raiser preflop and then sb 3 bet...He hasnt played it like he has aces, kings, queens, jacks or even 10s...the flop was likely not any help to him since he was the three bettor and im not going to put him on a set of 2s or 3s..and since he didnt 3 bet those are out...so what about kings, queens, aces...wouldnt the fish that yall want these guys to be always 3 bet aces kings queens...? remember i dont have a read on these guys yet...so am i supposed to assume that nobody knows how to play poker? that will cost you money...the turn puts a 10 on teh board? again what hands 3 bet from the sb with a 10 in thier hand? ace 10? pkt 10s? from his action the 10 wasnt any help on the river the guy wakes up and then the utg calls...again..who in their right mind wakes up with a sb bluff bet? as aseem was so quick to point out..its 1/2 and everybody sucks (sw)...we are under the assumption that he is too stupid to play a high pockets strong but that hes smart enough to attempt a bluff from ep? Do you see where you get a mixed view of the villian? If you are going to assume hes a fish then he should 3bet any high pocket pair...OR he would just check/call the river since that would be the correct flow of the hand for him....He would not wake up on the river with a bluff....that is the work of a more skillful player who was good enough to change gears in a handbut since i apparently played this hand wrong...aseem what holdings could the sb have and the utg have that he calls with that i can beat? (as a reminder..lets recall that the sb 3 bet preflop)
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I think you have to consider an A to be by far the most likely holding for UTG. I'd maybe put it at 60%. The probability of SB having it has to be pretty close to 100%. Sometimes you just know you're beaten.
Why?UTG limped PF. Loose players limp with all sorts of garbage. He is far more likely to have a pp, 2 pair, pair w/ board, etc, than an ace. No offense, but I think your 60% estimate is way off.I do agree that SB almost always has an ace. I'd estimate around around 90% of the time. However, as Aseem pointed out, there are other factors going on here beside the math. Folding a winner in such a large pot will cost you much more due to tilt than the fraction of a BB it costs to call.
and what range of hands would that be? remember...mp was the initial raiser preflop and then sb 3 bet...He hasnt played it like he has aces, kings, queens, jacks or even 10s...
I've already explained SB. He could play kings, queens, jacks this way. So could MP - Especially since you haven't given a read. People who play low limits do weird shit all the time, just look at the example I gave.
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If UTG had folded, I'm calling and folding to a raise behind me. Since UTG called, I'm folding. And, if you guys are tilting if you made a bad fold and lost this hand...learn some patience.

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Folding a winner in such a large pot will cost you much more due to tilt than the fraction of a BB it costs to call."
Do you often think "I'd better call this, though I know I'm beat, but if I am wrong I will just be on tilt and that's bad. Even though "I'd estimate around 90% of the time" SB has an ace and I don't close the action I'd better call here cause I don't want to go on tilt. Don't want to go on tilt so I'm going to throw my money away. That will help me stay off tilt. Ahhhhhh."I sure don't.
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4th to quote you...it is 1/2...people arent going to think they can bluff from sb against 3 opponents..maybe at 5/10 or 10/20 that works..nto at 1/2 and you know that
You're assuming that people will only make bluffs when it stands a reasonable chance of being effective.You're also assuming that people call when they have a reasonable chance at winning the hand.Reasonable meaning profitable.People who're less skilled are far more likely to violate those assumptions than those who're better; ie: people at higher limits.
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