Strat Tourney Hand - Low Mid Pocket And Board Flops A Pair

[Yahkin 0]

I probably should have folded PF with this, but these are the best cards I've seen in a long time.I'm pretty sure this flop has missed the villain since the bet looks like a cBet to me. I'm leaning towards a shovel. Thoughts?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)BB (t3370)UTG (t1815)MP (t3625)Hero (t1420)SB (t3270)Preflop: Hero is Button with 6, 6. 1 fold, MP raises to t250, Hero calls t250, 2 folds.Flop: (t650) 5, Q, Q(2 players)MP bets t305, Hero ???

[jmbreslin 0]

What kind of range do you put MP on with that raise? If you're going to call a PF raise with 66, might as well push to isolate with your stack. Unless you have good reason to believe his raise means mid-high PP. Hard to say what you should do on the flop without that information. If you think he made the raise and CB with overcards, then go ahead and push.

[Stuples 0]

Just call. If he has missed overs then the call has to be scary and should slow him down. You don't have to go broke if he has you beat. Call and see how he acts on the turn.BTW I actually prefer shoving preflop because its 5 handed and he made a weak raise. We are good against his range and we'll be adding ~1/3 to our stack.

[rogerwilco 0]

Just call. If he has missed overs then the call has to be scary and should slow him down. You don't have to go broke if he has you beat. Call and see how he acts on the turn.

I very strongly dislike that play. If Hero calls, he has 870 chips left (that would be an adjusted M of just 3!) with 1220 in the pot - calling on the flop&folding turn looks absolutely terrible to me. The only reason to just call on the flop might be to induce a bluff on the turn, but Hero cannot fold on the turn anymore in my opinion.I don't really like the call preflop, you don't have enough chips to play for set value, I'd push or fold preflop depending on the raiser, and I'd definately push on the flop with such a favorable board.

[jmbreslin 0]

I agree with roger. If he is CBing with overcards, calling down the flop also gives him a chance to connect with an overpair on the turn. Then Hero is in deep doodoo.

[simo_8ball 0]

I very strongly dislike that play. If Hero calls, he has 870 chips left (that would be an adjusted M of just 3!) with 1220 in the pot - calling on the flop&folding turn looks absolutely terrible to me. The only reason to just call on the flop might be to induce a bluff on the turn, but Hero cannot fold on the turn anymore in my opinion.I don't really like the call preflop, you don't have enough chips to play for set value, I'd push or fold preflop depending on the raiser, and I'd definately push on the flop with such a favorable board.

I'll elaborate, because I discussed the line with Stu before he posted.Shoving preflop is almost certainly the best play. I'm sure most would agree with that. That's not the main question here. GIVEN that we called preflop, what is our best line on the flop?If we shove, all better hands call, all worse ones fold. If we have the best hand, we are fading at most 6 outs.Most players are unlikely to bet the turn with nothing. We can easily fold to a turn bet (really, we can - 3:1 pot odds aren't important when you likely have 2 outs) and still have 865 left, where we can still play and have some fold equity.If we are checked to on the turn we can move in and win the pot when we are far more certain we have the best hand.I would play any queen, or any high pair in pretty much the same way postflop. Plus a few ace high hands.Suppose you are the villain, with A-X. Are you really betting the turn? How about a hand like JT? You cannot expect to have the best hand or have very much fold equity. The standard play would be check/fold.If villain is TAG, calling the flop is far better than shoving.

[jmbreslin 0]

Most players are unlikely to bet the turn with nothing. We can easily fold to a turn bet (really, we can - 3:1 pot odds aren't important when you likely have 2 outs) and still have 865 left, where we can still play and have some fold equity.

His fold equity would be almost nil, wouldn't it? Every player at the table (except for UTG) would be able to call his push without much risk to his stack. Leaving himself with 8BB at this point would put him in pretty dire straights.

If we are checked to on the turn we can move in and win the pot when we are far more certain we have the best hand.

Sure, but with pocket 66 on a paired board Hero's hand is very vulnerable. Any high card on the turn runs the risk of connecting with villain's hand if he is playing overcards. Also, we have no reason to believe that villain is TAG based on the OP's info.At this point the pot is 650 chips, which will increase Hero's stack by almost 50%. That's certainly worth taking on the flop. Yes he'll get called by stronger hands, but unless we have reason to believe he is TAG and would only be making this play with a mid-high PP, I think Hero is likely in good shape here.

[simo_8ball 0]

His fold equity would be almost nil, wouldn't it? Every player at the table (except for UTG) would be able to call his push without much risk to his stack. Leaving himself with 8BB at this point would put him in pretty dire straights.

As villain, would you shove the turn with worse than AK? If not, would you check/call a shove with worse than AK? Most of villain's hands SHOULD give up on the turn. Our flop call is unlikely to be made without at least a pair.

Sure, but with pocket 66 on a paired board Hero's hand is very vulnerable. Any high card on the turn runs the risk of connecting with villain's hand if he is playing overcards. Also, we have no reason to believe that villain is TAG based on the OP's info.

It's less vulnerable than on an unpaired board. Yes, any higher card is scary, but unless it ACTUALLY hits villain's hand, we are likely winning the pot on the turn.

At this point the pot is 650 chips, which will increase Hero's stack by almost 50%. That's certainly worth taking on the flop. Yes he'll get called by stronger hands, but unless we have reason to believe he is TAG and would only be making this play with a mid-high PP, I think Hero is likely in good shape here.

Yeah, shoving is +EV and the pot is 'worth' taking. I think calling is better though. Calling allows you to avoid going broke against a better hand, saving over half your starting stack. If calling left us with <6bb I would shove.Basically:Villain's flop bet is either weak or strong. If it is weak he is almost always giving up on the turn ui. If it is strong he is likely betting the turn.

[rogerwilco 0]

Ok, I stand corrected then, I guess calling on the flop has much more value than I thought at first. Still, I'd be scared of giving the guy with A8 or whatever a free card, and I'd really hate to fold on the turn to an all-in here (I'd call and spike my 6 ;-) ) and be left with such a small stack - but, 900 chips is better than 0 chips...

[jmbreslin 0]

Very interesting. I tend to very rarely call the flop unless I'm trapping or I have the odds to chase a draw. Otherwise I tend to either raise or fold. I'm going to keep this thread in mind next time I run into this kind of situation. Here is how I understand simo's point (please correct me if I'm wrong):When in a way ahead/way behind situation on the flop, it may be best to call a flop bet to test the strength of your opponent's hand. If he comes out firing on the turn, you're probably behind and should throw away; if he checks, you're probably ahead and should bet to take the pot. This is assuming that calling the flop bet won't leave you pot committed.Make sense?

[jburn812 0]

Extremely read dependent. I know tons of people that love to bluff on paired boards. These people have no problem firing out two bullets with two overs.

[Yahkin 0]

Hmm, calling is an interesting line...and not one I would have considered here previously. Very sound logic in it though and something I will definately keep in mind in the future.Given the competition though, playing with <900 chips would not have been much fun at all.I pushed and villain thought about it for a bit and eventually made the call. He did have overs...unfortunately they were both Kings. Well played qyayqi, I put you squarely on an ace with a good kicker. The flop "cBet" confirmed my read.

[simo_8ball 0]

Ok, I stand corrected then, I guess calling on the flop has much more value than I thought at first. Still, I'd be scared of giving the guy with A8 or whatever a free card, and I'd really hate to fold on the turn to an all-in here (I'd call and spike my 6 ;-) ) and be left with such a small stack - but, 900 chips is better than 0 chips...

There is no real right or wrong answer here. If villain had led out 400 I would probably shove. The main thing I see here is that the 305 bet will almost never be made by a low pair. It looks weak, so it will usually be one of two things - very strong or very weak. If it's weak there is only a slight amount of value in shoving, and if it is strong there is a LOT more value in calling the flop and folding turn ui.

Very interesting. I tend to very rarely call the flop unless I'm trapping or I have the odds to chase a draw. Otherwise I tend to either raise or fold. I'm going to keep this thread in mind next time I run into this kind of situation. Here is how I understand simo's point (please correct me if I'm wrong):When in a way ahead/way behind situation on the flop, it may be best to call a flop bet to test the strength of your opponent's hand. If he comes out firing on the turn, you're probably behind and should throw away; if he checks, you're probably ahead and should bet to take the pot. This is assuming that calling the flop bet won't leave you pot committed.Make sense?

I keep linking this, but it's such a great point:http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...showtopic=88379This situation is a lot different, but I feel the same principle applies. In many situations, passivity isn't a bad thing.

Extremely read dependent. I know tons of people that love to bluff on paired boards. These people have no problem firing out two bullets with two overs.

If you are against such a player you should just call down. Why stop him from bluffing?Again, if the flop bet was ~400 I would dislike calling because it would be more of a standard c/bet and I would expect a wide range to shove the turn. Actually, thinking further, if he will shove the turn almost regardless, you are still better calling the flop and then calling/shoving on any turn (bar perhaps an ace) to maximise your equity from his weaker hands. That would likely be my play against a LAG.

[simo_8ball 0]

Given the competition though, playing with <900 chips would not have been much fun at all.

Probably more fun than having 0 chips though."zing"

[qyayqi 11]

Hmm, calling is an interesting line...and not one I would have considered here previously. Very sound logic in it though and something I will definately keep in mind in the future.Given the competition though, playing with <900 chips would not have been much fun at all.I pushed and villain thought about it for a bit and eventually made the call. He did have overs...unfortunately they were both Kings. Well played qyayqi, I put you squarely on an ace with a good kicker. The flop "cBet" confirmed my read.

i expected you to call the cb, then i'd check the turn to give you a chance to bluff. your push had me wondering about something like aq, hence the pause to think it through before calling.