$162 Tilt Final Table

[HoosierAlum 0]

6 Left at the final table in the nightly $162 on Tilt.3k/6k. Short stack, who has been playing solid shoves for 62k. A top ranked P5s player insta-calls. (220k total when hand started) I have 205k and 1010 in the bb. Stacks are very even right now, the most any person has is 240k.What do I do?

[GrinderMJ 0]

Who is the p5's player? It's pretty close man, but with Full Tilt's huge ante I think the short stack's range is really wide with an m of like 4/5. The flat call actually scares me more than a shove would probably. Is calling and shoving a safe board a reasonable option?

[IQCrash 1]

Wow, it's pretty close. I think you can make an argument for all sides of the coin here - shove pre-flop, stop and go a safe flop, and fold. I think they'd all be reasonable given this circumstance.I'd probably take the safe route and fold.

[simo_8ball 0]

I probably fold.

[HoosierAlum 0]

Is calling and shoving a safe board a reasonable option?

Well most of the time at least 1 overcard is going to flop...so what do you consider a "safe" board?

[GrinderMJ 0]

Bleh, I suppose that's teh problem with this play, there is no way to tell. I'd probably fold actually, shoving is too scary and stop n going is meh I think.

[Dratj 0]

6 Left at the final table in the nightly $162 on Tilt.3k/6k. Short stack, who has been playing solid shoves for 62k. A top ranked P5s player insta-calls. (220k total when hand started) I have 205k and 1010 in the bb. Stacks are very even right now, the most any person has is 240k.What do I do?

I would shove and isolate the short stack. Short stack has a low M and you are likely ahead.

[gobears 0]

I would shove and isolate the short stack. Short stack has a low M and you are likely ahead.

It's 140k more for the P5 guy - total pot including side/main pot is 320k+. I doubt he's folding here to a shove. I'd rather stop n go then shove if I wanted to play for all my chips. Problem with the stop n go is that one player is already all-in so I still have to beat him.With two players in, I'd have to fold preflop.

[tskillz187 0]

6 Left at the final table in the nightly $162 on Tilt.3k/6k. Short stack, who has been playing solid shoves for 62k. A top ranked P5s player insta-calls. (220k total when hand started) I have 205k and 1010 in the bb. Stacks are very even right now, the most any person has is 240k.What do I do?

Have read 0 replies.I'm assuming the P5 player is not in SB. If so you have all options of pushing, folding, or stop n going. I like the stop n go on a non A flop. The p5er range is likely AJ+ 77+, the PF all in is probably a lot wider.If you reraise all in, it does show that you are very strong, probably 99+ AK, however, he is getting a very good price to call you with other decent hands, ones which I wouldn't want him calling with (overcards).So, because of this I call the all in and shove any non A flop.

It's 140k more for the P5 guy - total pot including side/main pot is 320k+. I doubt he's folding here to a shove. I'd rather stop n go then shove if I wanted to play for all my chips. Problem with the stop n go is that one player is already all-in so I still have to beat him.With two players in, I'd have to fold preflop.

Really? Fold 1010 pf 6 handed? I mean even in the P5er did wake up with a monster, he will likely knock us both out and we take 5th place money, if he doesnt then we are well ahead of PF all in range (I think). If we take this pot down we are in great chip position, if we lose to the short only we are the new short, but not in a horrible spot, as i already saidif we push and p5er is huge we likely get 5th, and then if both are ahead when we get all in we get 6th which I think happens the least amount.I think the debate is really only between pushing and stop n going, and we both agree that stop n going is far better than pushing.

[HoosierAlum 0]

Remember the P5er(strong player definitely capable of smooth calling big pairs here) INSTA-CALLED. This is a fairly important part of the hand and shrinks his range considerably IMO.I disagree with Tskillz, I think folding is definitely viable here...will elaborate with more replies.I also wanted to add this: The final table was very strong and with 6 left there were no real soft spots.

[Zach6668 513]

Remember the P5er(strong player definitely capable of smooth calling big pairs here) INSTA-CALLED. This is a fairly important part of the hand and shrinks his range considerably IMO.

I agree with this, the smooth call scares the **** out of my when it's a reasonable player.Playin a strat tourney with copernicus: I raise with AT, ChrisRichey pushes, Cop calls (!), I wanted to fold but I was getting 10-1 with AT, lol, I was so scared he had a monster... turns out he had KQo, so who knows...lol

[RDog 0]

Easy foldage IMO. Flipping coins with 4 overs or possibly dominated by flat call. I don't see Awwwnutz folding your push after he flat called the short stack. Awwwwnutz could be taking advantage of your aggression by flat calling and hoping you try to push him out of the pot. Quite possible you are his real mark. I don't think there is any way he isn't pushing AK, AQ to keep you out of the pot. Combine that with the insta, I think you are looking at a monster. Funny, I watched the FT and I don't even remember how this hand played out.

[Dratj 0]

Remember the P5er(strong player definitely capable of smooth calling big pairs here) INSTA-CALLED. This is a fairly important part of the hand and shrinks his range considerably IMO.I disagree with Tskillz, I think folding is definitely viable here...will elaborate with more replies.I also wanted to add this: The final table was very strong and with 6 left there were no real soft spots.

So, you are saying you think the P5er has JJ, QQ, KK or AA and is looking for you to try to sandwich him and trap you? My gut feeling tells me he had AK or AQ. I cannot justify it but it's just a feeling.

[tskillz187 0]

Remember the P5er(strong player definitely capable of smooth calling big pairs here) INSTA-CALLED. This is a fairly important part of the hand and shrinks his range considerably IMO.I disagree with Tskillz, I think folding is definitely viable here...will elaborate with more replies.I also wanted to add this: The final table was very strong and with 6 left there were no real soft spots.

I just think this has so many mixed tells being thrown at you that you ignore it. He knows you are a p5er correct? So why would he do something that looks so obviously like a trap? And why call so quickly? These are all weak plays to me, not strong. It's not like it's me he's playing against, he likely knows you and knows that you know him. Instacalling with QQ-AA is super dumb, does he think you wouldn't notice that?I find it way more likely that he would raise with those hands, his flat call and instacall imply to me that he has 77-JJ (obv 1010 unlikely) or that he has AJ-AK. It's not like insta-smooth calling all-ins is an advanced play at all, which is why I don't understand the argument of hes a top ranked p5er and instacalled. If it were the other way around and he was some nobody deep in a 162 I'd find it much harder to get in here.As for the Final table being strong that's even more reason to try and win this pot and chip up, instead of being handcuffed shorthanded against many good players.

[RDog 0]

So, you are saying you think the P5er has JJ, QQ, KK or AA and is looking for you to try to sandwich him and trap you? My gut feeling tells me he had AK or AQ. I cannot justify it but it's just a feeling.

I don't think there is ANY way he flat calls with AK or AQ. With AK or AQ he has to shove so Hoos can only call with 2, maybe 3 hands. I think he shoves JJ and probably QQ as well (as well as 99). I don't think there is any way he is leaving a vulnerable hand out there for someone to possibly push him out of the pot. Everyone is way overthinking this IMO. Sometimes things are what they are. If he has a monster he has already gotten all the money he can get in the middle from original raiser. By flat calling, I don't care if it is more suspicious or not, it widens the range that will bring Hoos or even the SB in. If he shoves, there is no way Hoos is calling with 10 10. The fact that we are even having this conversation with 10 10 tells us that the button made the right play if in fact he does have a monster. Honestly, I could be wrong on this hand but I would say a breakdown of his hand range would be something along these lines:60% AA, KK 20% AJ, A 10 (hands he will get away from if pushed)20% QQ, JJ, AK, AQ Does anyone else like putting their big stack at risk against something that looks like this? I'm not sure why anyone as talented as Hoosier should be willing to put all their chips at risk for at best, a marginal situation. Hoosier folds he still has a big stack.

[tskillz187 0]

I don't think there is ANY way he flat calls with AK or AQ. With AK or AQ he has to shove so Hoos can only call with 2, maybe 3 hands. I think he shoves JJ and probably QQ as well (as well as 99). I don't think there is any way he is leaving a vulnerable hand out there for someone to possibly push him out of the pot. Everyone is way overthinking this IMO. Sometimes things are what they are. If he has a monster he has already gotten all the money he can get in the middle from original raiser. By flat calling, I don't care if it is more suspicious or not, it widens the range that will bring Hoos or even the SB in. If he shoves, there is no way Hoos is calling with 10 10. The fact that we are even having this conversation with 10 10 tells us that the button made the right play if in fact he does have a monster. Honestly, I could be wrong on this hand but I would say a breakdown of his hand range would be something along these lines:60% AA, KK 20% AJ, A 10 (hands he will get away from if pushed)20% QQ, JJ, AK, AQ Does anyone else like putting their big stack at risk against something that looks like this? I'm not sure why anyone as talented as Hoosier should be willing to put all their chips at risk for at best, a marginal situation. Hoosier folds he still has a big stack.

Good analysis. My rebuttal to the bold...All of you that play together/rail together/respect each other are not having a conversation, you all agree with one another. I'm disagreeing, and I'm not the P5er. You guys all think its an easy fold. So if he is trapping, it isn't working against you all, but against me, so this play isn't that great.And other comments...The play that you are talking about takes sometime to think about, not instacall, I find it much more likely that he would think about the best course of action to get other players chips than to just instacall. I mean this is a crucial spot in the tourney, I can't think of a hand that I could decide what I wanted to do immediately (that I'm not mucking). I think if you are going to weight his instacall trap monster so heavily you hafta take into account he could have messed up multitabling and went into ABC mode just as much. There's 0 hands that one can instacall in this spot, IMO.Is it so unlikely that P5er wants to eliminate that guy with an M of 4 that he is letting Hoosier come in to help and for them all to slide up? That's a sincere question, I would think this is a definite possibility, seeing as there is 1 short and 5 bigs.Finally I think you are weighing the possibilities for AA and KK far too much, because I don't think what I'm saying is irrational and the only way that your %'s are close is if what I'm saying is just irrational.

[RDog 0]

Good analysis. My rebuttal to the bold...All of you that play together/rail together/respect each other are not having a conversation, you all agree with one another. I'm disagreeing, and I'm not the P5er. You guys all think its an easy fold. So if he is trapping, it isn't working against you all, but against me, so this play isn't that great.And other comments...The play that you are talking about takes sometime to think about, not instacall, I find it much more likely that he would think about the best course of action to get other players chips than to just instacall. I mean this is a crucial spot in the tourney, I can't think of a hand that I could decide what I wanted to do immediately (that I'm not mucking). I think if you are going to weight his instacall trap monster so heavily you hafta take into account he could have messed up multitabling and went into ABC mode just as much. There's 0 hands that one can instacall in this spot, IMO.Is it so unlikely that P5er wants to eliminate that guy with an M of 4 that he is letting Hoosier come in to help and for them all to slide up? That's a sincere question, I would think this is a definite possibility, seeing as there is 1 short and 5 bigs.Finally I think you are weighing the possibilities for AA and KK far too much, because I don't think what I'm saying is irrational and the only way that your %'s are close is if what I'm saying is just irrational.

I think I am the only one that said it is an easy fold. You said if he is trying to trap Hoosier it wouldn't work because of the thought process we are going through now but the fact is, there is NO WAY Hoos calls a push with 10 10 so from a hand you have dominated, you go from 0 chance of getting Hoos to come over the top to a small percentage. Not pushing gives a slight chance of getting Hoos' chips in.I don't think the instacall means he didn't think about it. As soon as the cards came out I'm sure he thought about what he would do if the short stacked pushed. Those are things you consider before the action is even on you. Heck the instacall could have been excitement that he is getting action with AA or KK(which would meet your criteria for no thought and would to me be 2 hands you instacall).I don't think there is any chance he calling with an attempt to knock the guy out for over 1/3 of his chips. He is calling because he thinks he is ahead. If Hoos called, there is no way they check this down.So I guess my question is what range do you put the button on? GoBears already outlined that he is unlikely to fold a push by Hoos. What hands are you comfortable against risking your whole stack? Hoos will definitely find much better spots than this.

[tskillz187 0]

I think I am the only one that said it is an easy fold.

Hoos said he disagreed with me, so I thought that meant he thought it was a fold, I could be wrong.

I don't think there is any chance he calling with an attempt to knock the guy out for over 1/3 of his chips. He is calling because he thinks he is ahead. If Hoos called, there is no way they check this down.

I agree with this too, but thats because the flop is always good for either hoosier or the villain. Either Hoos bets out with the stop n go that I'm advocating because no A hits (or possibly no K) or he checks and the villain will be out if he has something worth betting, he isn't going to bluff at this pot and triple up the short.

So I guess my question is what range do you put the button on? GoBears already outlined that he is unlikely to fold a push by Hoos. What hands are you comfortable against risking your whole stack? Hoos will definitely find much better spots than this.

This could be a long answer. Now I'm not Hoosier and I don't feel overly comfortable taking flops OOP with good aggressive opponents. But I do play these 100's and have been winning at them, this week I've played 5 100's 9th, 2nd, 6th, 18th, and no cash. Obviously this is a really good week, but I'm just stating that I can play these successfully and am not arguing for the sake of arguing.What I think my best quality is in these 100's is realizing which players play better postflop than me and putting them to big preflop decisions. So already when I look at Hoosier's hand to analyze if it were me, this is an easy stop n go safe board situation and if I run into a monster 6 handed against a good player, well what can I do, it's better than letting him chop at me.Hoosier likely thinks he can outplay these other opponents without inflating the pot, so he might think there are better spots to get his money in, which is your argument. My range for villain's smooth call: 77-AAAJ-AKQKI know you are arguing strongly against the hands of middle value because you think he would shove for protection, but then hes only getting called when someone wakes up HUGE and he loses all of his chips a good % of that time. Also, by just smooth calling he knows that Hoos cannot come over the top all in with anything worse than AK, 1010(arguable lol)-AA. I think those are the widest margins of hands that the villain can be worried about someone shoving on his smooth. If they do have those then he saved money by smooth calling instead of shoving, because Hoos is almost never folding any of those to a shove. Finally if hoosier smooth calls behind villain, the villain knows that hoosier does not have KK,AA and he gets to take a flop in position against hoos knowing a lot more about hoosier's hand that hoosier knows about villain's hand.

[HoosierAlum 0]

He knows you are a p5er correct?

He has no idea who I am. For all I know he thinks I'm some random donk..(which I am )

Hoos said he disagreed with me, so I thought that meant he thought it was a fold, I could be wrong.

I said I disagree your analysis that folding would be a terrible mistake.

[HoosierAlum 0]

Hoos said he disagreed with me, so I thought that meant he thought it was a fold, I could be wrong.I agree with this too, but thats because the flop is always good for either hoosier or the villain. Either Hoos bets out with the stop n go that I'm advocating because no A hits (or possibly no K) or he checks and the villain will be out if he has something worth betting, he isn't going to bluff at this pot and triple up the short. This could be a long answer. Now I'm not Hoosier and I don't feel overly comfortable taking flops OOP with good aggressive opponents. But I do play these 100's and have been winning at them, this week I've played 5 100's 9th, 2nd, 6th, 18th, and no cash. Obviously this is a really good week, but I'm just stating that I can play these successfully and am not arguing for the sake of arguing.What I think my best quality is in these 100's is realizing which players play better postflop than me and putting them to big preflop decisions. So already when I look at Hoosier's hand to analyze if it were me, this is an easy stop n go safe board situation and if I run into a monster 6 handed against a good player, well what can I do, it's better than letting him chop at me.Hoosier likely thinks he can outplay these other opponents without inflating the pot, so he might think there are better spots to get his money in, which is your argument. My range for villain's smooth call: 77-AAAJ-AKQKI know you are arguing strongly against the hands of middle value because you think he would shove for protection, but then hes only getting called when someone wakes up HUGE and he loses all of his chips a good % of that time. Also, by just smooth calling he knows that Hoos cannot come over the top all in with anything worse than AK, 1010(arguable lol)-AA. I think those are the widest margins of hands that the villain can be worried about someone shoving on his smooth. If they do have those then he saved money by smooth calling instead of shoving, because Hoos is almost never folding any of those to a shove. Finally if hoosier smooth calls behind villain, the villain knows that hoosier does not have KK,AA and he gets to take a flop in position against hoos knowing a lot more about hoosier's hand that hoosier knows about villain's hand.

Im going to have to disagree with that range. As I mentioned earlier the short stack had been playing solid. I do not see the P5er insta-calling with QK or 77 (probably not 88 either) for 1/3 of his stack. Rdog has closer to the correct range IMO.I also think most of the time he is shoving AK, and JJ QQ to isolate. The most likely hands I see him smooth calling are AA,KK,AQ,AJss,99,88. If we stop and go, we are basically playing a guessing game. Do we jam every non-ace flop? Every non-ace,king flop? Every non-ace,king,queen flop? Basically we are playing a guessing game with this play, and we assure ourselves of either getting our money in terrible, or getting our $ in and getting a hand to fold that we had beat in the first place. We are almost never getting action from a worse hand (rare occassion of a 7 high flop and he has 99 and he decides to call) and we are never getting better hands to fold. I think stop-n-going is really bad here the more I think about it. I would be more inclined to call/check it down than to stop-n-go in this spot. Although I dislike that play as well.I'm going to have to agree with Rdog's analysis...I think folding is the best course of action. I took the entire time bank up and ended up folding...but Ive been thinking about this hand for a while as I think its pretty interesting.Edit:The results of the hand should suprise everyone....

[msals11 0]

rdog is right

[Zach6668 513]

rdog is right

Get off his balls already.*********I kid, my initial instinct was to fold. TT is not that strong of a hand.

[MisterB 2]

what were the results hoos?

[Fade2241 0]

Im going to have to disagree with that range. As I mentioned earlier the short stack had been playing solid. I do not see the P5er insta-calling with QK or 77 (probably not 88 either) for 1/3 of his stack. Rdog has closer to the correct range IMO.I also think most of the time he is shoving AK, and JJ QQ to isolate. The most likely hands I see him smooth calling are AA,KK,AQ,AJss,99,88. If we stop and go, we are basically playing a guessing game. Do we jam every non-ace flop? Every non-ace,king flop? Every non-ace,king,queen flop? Basically we are playing a guessing game with this play, and we assure ourselves of either getting our money in terrible, or getting our $ in and getting a hand to fold that we had beat in the first place. We are almost never getting action from a worse hand (rare occassion of a 7 high flop and he has 99 and he decides to call) and we are never getting better hands to fold. I think stop-n-going is really bad here the more I think about it. I would be more inclined to call/check it down than to stop-n-go in this spot. Although I dislike that play as well.I'm going to have to agree with Rdog's analysis...I think folding is the best course of action. I took the entire time bank up and ended up folding...but Ive been thinking about this hand for a while as I think its pretty interesting.Edit:The results of the hand should suprise everyone....

Both of them have AK or AQ?

[mk 11]

getting a great price, but i still think it's a fold. you almost have to assume P5er is using a little 3nd level thinking. sucks the times when he actually has 88-99.