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opinions / criticism on this play


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3 - handed at the end of a small 15 man tourney,I hold ~45-50% of the remaining chips and pick up KK on the button.With blinds at 400-800 and holding ~25,000 - 30,000 chips, I make it 2400 to go. SB folds, BB calls.Flop comes 8s9s3c, BB goes all in for ~ 18,000-20,000.I couldn't get a decent read out of him, and actually layed the hand down. My reasoning being, even if he doesnt have me dominated (a set or two pair), he may be drawing to a better hand (straight, flush, straight flush?). I would have been crippled if I called. I had been consistently building my stack and was confident I could continue to do so if I retained power at the table.--removed opponents cards---I'll tell you the outcome of the tourney later.

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yeah way too tight. Why would he bet into you with a set like that? if you had AK your folding. which is what he was hoping for. He gets extra value from you by C/R or smooth calling your predictable continuation bet if he has a set or two pair.

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What, honestly, could you put him on that BEATS you right now that he would bet that hard? I can think of 4 hands that beat you...AA, or one of the 3 OES+FDs possible. He could easily be jamming with a bluff, or with something you now have destroyed (QQ, JJ, 10-10). Would he really bet a set that hard, or would he check it to you and let you fire at it? Would he really bet top 2 that hard, or would he check it to you and let you bet at it? I just don't see anything possible here that he would bet this hard.

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In the future don't tell the outcome of the hand.You get better discussions that way. (not that this one is bad).
I think most people came to their conclusion before they got to the AJ showed part. Did expect him to have more than that, not nearly as much as you though.
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Yes I ended up winning. I put him on the nut flush draw with a low pair or the straight flush draw, but he is a relatively new player and I had to suspect the set - two-pair. I thought at the time that it was an extremely conservative play, and I likely had the best hand, but I was playing so well that I didnt want to risk the meat of my stack.

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In the future don't tell the outcome of the hand.You get better discussions that way. (not that this one is bad).
I think most people came to their conclusion before they got to the AJ showed part. Did expect him to have more than that, not nearly as much as you though.
What he should have done is try to emulate Daneil.Ask if he plays on the internet? When he says yes.Then call. :wink:
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Did you have the Ks? I call this. I think you can't lay down the big overpair in this case. Its completely possible that the BB is just trying to steal your chips if you are the bigstack and playing weak tight, which it sounds like you were.Ray

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I don't care what the outcome of this hand is, that is a HORRIBLE laydown. He'd make that play w/ JJ, QQ, 1010, and any draw. You've got a very good hand, and a HUGE chip lead, you should not be looking for excuses to not play hands. Without a read, which you say you didn't have, you must call here.

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I give you lots of credit for laying down the big hand . No matter what you get to live another day, and so what, you were hardly commited with 2400 unit bet . A little too tight for my style, but again... big props for being able to lay it down. I know a lot of people who wouldn't toss the kowboys with an ace on board. To look at the hand more internally, I would wonder what I would have done if he bet 4k. Would you come over the top for another 8 (4, 6, 8, or whatever) or smooth call? I think you could learn more about your style by figuring out the answer to that question.Lastly, you won the tourny... can't nobody say you made a bad play with that outcome, right?

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Lastly, you won the tourny... can't nobody say you made a bad play with that outcome, right?
Was this SW tagged?Snooka, proper poker play is not results oriented. You can make the right play all night long and lose every hand. Contrarily, you can make the wrong play all night long and win every hand. You can't judge a play based on what the outcome was. You have to judge it based on, if you had to play that hand over and and over again for eternity, which decision would end up being best for you.Ray
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in the op you state that you couldnt get a good read on him so you decieded to fold.if this statement is true i dont agree with this since you couldnt get a good read on him what made you think your kings were beat. i dont get it. i think this is a must callbut i dont know because later after everyone says its a bad play you say well i read him as having oesd with the str8 flush draw.so did you have a a read or not. i dont get itand was this live

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Yes I ended up winning. I put him on the nut flush draw with a low pair or the straight flush draw, but he is a relatively new player and I had to suspect the set - two-pair. I thought at the time that it was an extremely conservative play, and I likely had the best hand, but I was playing so well that I didnt want to risk the meat of my stack.
and here you had him pegged for about half the deck
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Easiest call ever, IMO.

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I give you lots of credit for laying down the big hand .  No matter what you get to live another day, and so what, you were hardly commited with 2400 unit bet .    A little too tight for my style, but again... big props for being able to lay it down.  I know a lot of people who wouldn't toss the kowboys with an ace on board.  To look at the hand more internally, I  would wonder what I would have done if he bet 4k.  Would you come over the top for another 8 (4, 6, 8, or whatever) or smooth call?   I think you could learn more about your style by figuring out the answer to that question.Lastly, you won the tourny... can't nobody say you made a bad play with that outcome, right?
Yes I Can...Yes I Can!!!!wow, where to start...well, op you were weak there and lucky that it didn't cost you the tourney...you need to gamble when you have that level of strength and NOT be afraid of the best possible hand out there...as well, as stated before, he would have tried to trap you with the very hands you thought he may have had...all that is left is overpair or the draws...I'll take my chances in that position against a draw night in, night out...Now Snooka, getting to live another day is great...only play the nuts and you will blind out...push the small edges and 3 handed even more so...that is the quickest way to go from chip leader to 2nd place in a hurry...laying down a monster is wrong in this case...what would you have done with AA??
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If I had encountered this hand in an isolated situation I would call in heartbeat.My main reason for not calling was I had been consistently dominating the table, and thought I would be able to get my money in in a better situation (which I accomplished). Although, in retrospect, I do agree this was not a smart play. I didnt have a strong read on him, but I always try to put people on hands... my best prediction was oes+fd. The bluffing player is a good friend of mine, and I can usually get a strong read on his bluffs. My uncertainty was what lead me to fold. Yes it was a live, friendly tourney with a $30 buy - in

You have to judge it based on, if you had to play that hand over and and over again for eternity, which decision would end up being best for you.  
I have to believe I would make the call in a future situation. Funny how I win the tourney, but that is the ONLY hand I can remember. Thank you all for the comments, constructive or not :club:
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If I had encountered this hand in an isolated situation I would call in heartbeat.My main reason for not calling was I had been consistently dominating the table, and thought I would be able to get my money in in a better situation (which I accomplished). Although, in retrospect, I do agree this was not a smart play. I didnt have a strong read on him, but I always try to put people on hands... my best prediction was oes+fd. The bluffing player is a good friend of mine, and I can usually get a strong read on his bluffs. My uncertainty was what lead me to fold.Yes it was a live, friendly tourney with a $30 buy - in
Your reasoning is a little flawed because you arent taking into account how the other players see you. When you are dominating your opposition, they become desperate and start to play out of their comfort zone. You have to look at from his point of view. He sees a standard preflop raise from you. Then the board looks pretty safe if you were betting with overcards. Now he doesnt want to check and have you make a standard continuation bet and then he has to fold. The pot has 5k. Since you say he is a relatively new player we can assume that he doesnt play small ball very well, so when he decides to bluff at this pot, the only thing he think of is to push in on you. He knows you can call without a pair, and he is assuming that you made this raise with big cards. Now lets look at this from pot odds. The pot is 5k. He has 17.4k. It is 17.4k to win 22.4k. Thats 1.3 to 1 odds. Now lets look at the range of hands he could be playing and the odds of you winning:Set: Youre about 10% to win2 pair: Youre about 25% to winStraight and Flush draw: Youre about 44% to winStraight draw: Youre about 63% to winFlush draw with an ace: Youre about 52% to winBluff with an ace: Youre about 80% to win Now in only the set and 2 pair scenario are you not getting the right odds to call. And you can also assume that your opponent would not push with those to hands. He would try to trap you.This was an easy call in my mind. A player who pushes into me on a non scary board after I raised is not looking to get called. They think the board didnt hit you and are making a move.
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Okay, I basically said in my post I would have called. I'm just saying I can respect a laydown of that magnitude. He made a play based on what he thought he COULD have. They say your first instincts are usually good. 3 seconds ago I took a beat with AA. Here it is:Game: .25 cent PL3rd to act, I raise 1.00 prefloptwo people callFlop is K 10 4 rainbowI bet 3.25 after a check from the SBNext to go makes it 6SB foldsI call all in.He had K 10 and wins.That's how you loose a tournement... obviously, the board in this scenario was better than in the other situation, but a hand like that could really break you if the other person draws out. He felt a fold was the right thing to do and wound up with a win. He could have called 2400 with 89 suited to crack kings, a straight, or maybe a draw, or a straight and flush draw. It's a dangerous board, and he folded his Kings. I still say it was a nice lay down.

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