Was It A Good Laydown?

[30odd6 0]

hello all, ive been playin nlhe tournys for some time now, and have "my own" srategy similar to daniels small ball, which i didnt realize til i see all the blogs and such. dont get me wrong, i am VERY loose too, im doing good with a 186% roi live, and was wondering what your thoughts on this situatuation were...playing a $250 nlhe tourny, 30 min blinds and starting with 10,000 chips, and the field was only 78. blinds are now at 300/600, and i have 10,700 chips, the 1st pos makes a min raise to 1,200, and i call in 6th pos with KdJd. im putting 1st pos on at least AK if not AA or KK (maybe thats wrong she could be weak?) a fold may have been better, but looking to hit diamonds , 2 pr or the same flop with diamonds, and of course (the loose playeri am) looking to steal it using position) so the flop comes KsQs10c and 1st position goes all in, and has me outstacked......wow! overbet to protect hand i presume, or semi-bluffing with 99 or Ax spades, and still having outs. i look at the possible min raise scenarios and think the only hands i have crushed are almost nil (AQ , A 10 , pkt JJ or 99) but can beat a set or most hands if played out. the dilemma is...what if pkt KK or AA or 10 10 ? is it right for me to put all my chips (9,500 which is still over 15 times bb) so i can be a big stack, or should i have done what i did...fold??? most scenarios i put out there in my head was putting me behind, but still a coin flip. then i think..what if AJ???im playin for a chop. does 15 bb's constitute an all in call there?? i felt it was too early. whether it was right or wrong, i still made it to 8th place, and still am kicking myself in the rear thinking i could have been huge stacked, and put a lot of pressure on everyone else. and may have won the tourny. i make huge laydowns to find myself in a better position later, but that was brutal to fold!! i still feel it was right tho...maybe not..ya, it was...well... LOL see waht i mean? thx a ton for the input joe

[fakepoo 0]

Honestly, you are not deep enough to be trying to crack what you perceive to be AA/KK/AK with KdJd so you should be folding preflop. I would say you need at least 20 to 1 on your call preflop for this to be profitable and, if you intend to get it in on boards like this, you are actually putting yourself in a reverse-implied odds scenario.

[30odd6 0]

well poo, i did put myself in a bad position by calling pre and trying to hit "lightning" . i do try to chip up too fast since my game is seeing a lot of flops, and buying pots that are scary boards and such( my game needs 20-25 bb to play) i love busting big hands that the fish feel are good. getting back to the scenario...it was a sticky situation i put myself in, but i was there, and knowing i need 20 bb, do you still put it all in there??? i know, it depends on bankroll, do i cash, do i win, is it profitable, etc. i heard from some players that day that they would have broken their arm by not getting it in fast enough! like i say...im a rollercoaster for the first level or so. i feel its time to let people know i play a lot of hands and dont get scared, so later on, i tighten up (showing only great hands)and take down monster pots til the final table... then its only the nuts....maybe LOL what would you have done there if facing the all-in?

[cdipierr 0]

This doesn't depend on bankroll, etc. If you assign a range of 99+ and AT+ (which you seem to be doing in the first post), then according to PokerStove you have a 50.229% equity. So having to call 9500 to win 11900 would be correct.But if you tighten the range to TT+, AJ+, your equity decreases to 39.112%Then if you stick with your initial read of KK+, AK, your equity is only 28.189%So basically it depends on how well you're reading the initial raiser. If you can really put them on the wide 99+ range, then call, otherwise insta-fold.That said, please fold this preflop. You have an M of less than 12 to start the hand. You should be looking to push the action, not mine for value.

[fakepoo 0]

As played, the overbet shove seems like a 1-pair hand trying to protect (AA or AK likely). You would be drawing to the straight only which means that you would only have 6 or 7 outs. This makes your equity only about 25-30% which is not nearly enough to call the overshove. Your only good option here is to fold.

[Init2WINitHI 0]

I agree that you should fold this pre, but if you are set on trying to 'hit lightning' then don't hesitate to fold when the flop is messy - like this one, or misses you completely. Only proceed with this hand if you hit lightning.... esp live.

[TrueAce13 18]

lol at this post...if your a winning player, your not playing a hand like this

[donk4life 34]

*you're

[TrueAce13 18]

*you're

gfy

[30odd6 0]

lol, the funny thing is that most everyone believes that a min raise in 1st position means you are strong....thx for the info guys. its the reaction and replys i was looking for LOL you guys are too easy! its early in the tourny and thats when to try that move, cuz it seems all the replys are going to fold to me if i min raise in 1st pos. i can see later in the tourny it does mean you are strong cuz you aint risking it, the money is too close and chips are PRECIOUS and i see now that it will work early also.

[30odd6 0]

lol at this post...if your a winning player, your not playing a hand like this

well ace, i see i just strengthened my knowledge on this. thx...see what i wrote to this at 6:34 today

[30odd6 0]

funny thing is...what could someone in 6th pos call a min raise from 1st pos with? some type of a suited A, Js10s/9s or like, KQ, Q10, AJ mid pkt pair, etc. so how can 1st position push like that? only 2,700 in the pot. i dont think it was 1 pair like someone said. why would 1st pos push? a bluff? it would cripple them to lose the pot! something for you to think about. the only hand they get you to fold is mid pkt pair. im sayin it was exactly AJ or possibly As9s/KK but i had a Kso...? or could be Js10s knowing id be in for my tourny life and i will fold. so does that tell you that people play a little loose in 1st pos early in a tourny? AA is beat by 2 pair or set 10s and would be drawing to 9 outs max which puts them at @36% to win. and as for the comment i made above on bankroll...some people play that way when a $250 buy in or cashing means nothing to them. poker has changed, and there is a lot to consider now-a-days. just tryin to get everyones mind to work...tight is not always right.

[Tehtoe 3]

lol.

[wildspoke 2]

lol.

What he said.

[cdipierr 0]

It's threads like these that people refer to when they point out that poker isn't dead yet...

[GOCUBSGO 77]

ummmthis thread is epicas much as it pains me to have attempted to read all of that rambling by the OP, it was worth every second lol

[30odd6 0]

i guess i accomplished my mission..everyone thinks a min raise in first pos is strength, well, it also is just to see a flop.when first read, everyone believed that 1st pos had a big hand and said fold pre. i put it to you that way. after all the scenarios i threw out, the comments changed and stopped...why? the game nowadays, as well as mine, is not about what i have, its what i put you on and making you believe that i have something that i dont. its poker/gambling, not flip up the cards, deal em out, and see who wins. if we played who has the best hand, it would be boring. i would call with 3-5 off there and see the flop, i get in cheap.any flop could come for my game. i would let you do a normal 3/4 to pot bet and catch a phantom card, such as A, Q, 10, 9, any spade, and you would be scared and check...so i then become the aggressor and push all in, leaving you a decision to be left with only 2 BB's. i change gears constantly at my home casino's, and people have no clue where im at. but dont do it often...thats why i am a winning player. i use math a lot, and if i sacrifice one play to win 3 tournys in a row...its worth it! now that i confused everyone here...see you at the tables good luck. im not here to give good advice, just an opinion, sorry, im here to win

[30odd6 0]

tournys are so much luck to make it all the way, why not use skill and get knocked out instead of letting the cards do it for you? the odds of cashing (the same as card and pot odds)are there too. you can tell how a tourny is going...am i hitting everything and can sit back and collect chips, or am i getting sucked out on constantly?? if the latter, then make it happen yourself.....who cares about playing tight and TRYING to make it to the money? people cash on average of what....upper 20 some percent. you will just blind out if a day like that is happening. go for it, and push to get on to the next tourny. dont make yourself suffer! words to live by, I'M FRIKIN SERIOUS. im at 186% roi in the casinos, so dont think im a crazy player, just being honest. sure, play a good game but REALLY mess it up once in a while so no-one knows where you are at! way to easy to figure out tight players. one last suggestion: you need a lot of time in the saddle to be able to pull this stuff off.the main objective is: LOSE SMALL, WIN BIG!!!!

[Tehtoe 3]

Sample for ROI?!I bet you're a largely losing player in most MTTs due to your seeming lack of basic understanding of the game.

[SwolyswoND 1]

this thread is epic

+1

[BGibbs25 0]

So you put your opponent on AA, KK, or AK, proceed to call about 1/8th of your stack with KJ, and then want to try and say you're a winning player? I just don't see how it adds up.

[30odd6 0]

So you put your opponent on AA, KK, or AK, proceed to call about 1/8th of your stack with KJ, and then want to try and say you're a winning player? I just don't see how it adds up.

i'll tell you how it adds up! i put out a scenario for people to ponder, and NOT ONE PERSON said that a min raise in 1st position could be weak! i'm down to 18bb. i wanted a reaction from players. i got what i was looking for....everyone BELIEVES 1st pos was strong LOL 1/2 the time the bets like that are just to see a flop, it throws you off. do you want 8 players behind you to crack your AA?. and as for all the mumbo jumbo i put out there, no one knows what to say about that! i could have easily had a set, 2 pair or a straight, so why did 1st pos over bet pot by 15 bb blinds????. that play was 10x worse than trying to hit a flop like i did, for a min raise. i guess in peoples eyes, you should just fold to a 1st pos raise and GIVE it to him every time..LOL greaT POKER PLAYERS! this is what im talking about...people are programmed to believe one thing " he MUST have xx" in this spot. i was trying to see if anyone with a brain could come up with ways to call 1st pos, who had As9s 8s9s J10 QJ or 99, who knows..6h7h and used 1st pos to throw you off, and bluffed thier ass off. it was virtually a coin flip for me to call and i could be a favorite! but did i call??? hell no, cuz i will find a better spot to put it in...maybe not? i wanted to see how many people would put it in there. that was a pretty good spot. blinds are going up and antes are sucking you dry, im basically pushing with anything very soon. think about it. putting it in with the best hand is not always the right play. another thing...im talking about ONE scenario, and i sure the hell dont play crazy and donk like most players do. why do you think i am a winning player?? i havent worked since 1998 and only play poker! no, i'm not a millionaire but the bills are paid and i take weeks off at a time. call it what you want.

[30odd6 0]

So you put your opponent on AA, KK, or AK, proceed to call about 1/8th of your stack with KJ, and then want to try and say you're a winning player? I just don't see how it adds up.

hey gibbs, and a lot of other commentors, i see most of you are new to the game...how is youre record ???? do you really have the right to criticize me? im talking about 1 frikin hand! and NO_ONE took into consideration the point in the tourny(except for cdpierr thx), the stack sizes, blinds, etc. someday you will learn. i guess my mind is just way to advanced for this site. i use my brain. before the flop even comes i have virtually every scenario that could happen in mind from the flop to turm to river and what if??? if i raise then???...she reraise???...3 bet possible???... dah dah dah, etc. you guys see your cards and thats all you play. there are ways to see how good players are on the net, and i see. meet me at the casino PLEASE!!! i'm not fond of the internet. look at the pros tourny records on the net. there are different sites that show the rankings.

[HighwayStar 8]

If you think he's weak just shove.As a general rule, against all but the loosest of openers.Fold >>>>>> Shove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CallPlaying postflop without initiative with these stacks and a hand which isn't Kings or Aces SUCKS. As for his play, I'd say his hand is often gonna be pair+ draw and maybe a few flush draws which could be a pretty wide range, some of which you have crushed, almost all of which you have okay equity against. I actually think quite a lot of his range except flopped sets and straights could find a reason to overbet shove here. This is a roundabout way of saying I don't think this is a good laydown.You caught a dream flop here for your hand and still managed to find a fold. If you're playing to flop better than this, you're making a colossal mathematical error. It is one that is often indicative of a player who has a lot of other leaks.As for inexperiecned players in this thread, I can't speak for everyone but there are at least 4 that are consistent winners at reasonable stakes, admittedlymost of them are saying lol, gfy or correcting grammar.

[TrueAce13 18]

hey gibbs, and a lot of other commentors, i see most of you are new to the game...how is youre record ???? do you really have the right to criticize me? im talking about 1 frikin hand! and NO_ONE took into consideration the point in the tourny(except for cdpierr thx), the stack sizes, blinds, etc. someday you will learn. i guess my mind is just way to advanced for this site. i use my brain. before the flop even comes i have virtually every scenario that could happen in mind from the flop to turm to river and what if??? if i raise then...she reraise...3 bet possible... dah dah dah etc. you guys see your cards and thats all you play. there are ways to see how good players are on the net, and i see. meet me at the casino PLEASE!!! i'm not fond of the internet. look at the pros tourny records on the net. there are different sites that show the rankings.

lol, you are a horrible player. What casino do you play at? I would love to sit at the same table as you. You played this hand sooo horrible...thank god highway is kind to actually put input into this hand. You have like 15bbs...YOU NEVER FLAT 15bbs...not only did you flat, but you flat OOP. Another HUGE flaw in this hand. Wait for a better spot. If you were actually a winning player or thinking player, you would not think like this and be so f*cking closed minded. And yes...there are 4 winning players who posted in this thread, all thinking that this is an epic level or that your just loool bad.