Convert Me...

[TheCinciKid 0]

I've recently decided to get back into studying the subject of religion and God. I've lurked in the religion forum here from time to time and it seems that there are a lot of atheists here. So, I'd like you to convince me why you're right.I was raised Catholic, very Catholic, and gave it up about 6 years ago when I was 19 or so. I still believe in God, but otherwise I'm more or less an open book. I'm very smart and I have a lot of respect for logic and rational, logical arguments. I don't have much respect for arguments based on emotion. In a lot of ways, I'm probably a good candidate for atheism. I won't get on here and argue with you in depth, certainly no personal attacks or anything of that nature. I might ask questions about your points, but I won't argue. I want to learn. Prove to me that I should be an atheist. Oh, and please don't just link me to really lengthy articles or book titles. If I wanted to do things that way I'd find the best book on the subject and read it (and I may do that someday), but I really don't have that kind of time. So, be clear and concise if possible.Thanks.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

here's the thing. Atheism isn't looking for converts. The whole "convert" thing is xianity's bag, not atheism's. I wasn't converted to atheism by anyone. It was just slow, hard process of realizing I didn't believe in God, that Jesus my personal lord and savior being extremely unlikely, and letting go of my fear of death, fear of the great void, so I could really accept what I already believed to be true. It was a very difficult process for me, and it wasn't done by a charismatic atheist winning me over to the dark side, it was a product of a great deal of thought and oddsmaking.I don't know what to tell you in terms of converting you. But I think of it this way. in handicapping something, what odds would you give this.. that there is a god, he is all powerful, all seeing and all knowing. He needs devotion from his followers. Yet this devotion is not enough to save them from eternal suffering. So he has to make a magic spell. IN order to do this, he has to have a son. But the son is also him, because polytheism is blastphemy. So this son that is also him has to be born into the world, has to live and teach for a while, then has to be sacrificed. At the end of three days, the son is resurrected. Now people can stop going to hell. If you just really, really believe that this son of god died and was reborn, then that is the magic formula from avoiding hell. In order to prove your belief in this, you have to sprinkle magic water on your head, you have to drink wine that represents the son's blood ( or believe it really is his blood, depending on your church) and that the bread is his body ( same). By the process of magic water, and symbolistic cannibalism you are saved. This seems likely to you? Being a Christian requires is a huge, huge, huge suspension of logic and disbelief, without one shred of material evidence that it's real, and you are told that this is called " faith" and this process of disbelief suspension will be rewarded in the next life. All of this seems extremely unlikely to me. I need more than magic spells and personal emotional tales of salvation for me to buy into Christianity. I need proof, I need something more than these tales. I don't think the burden of proof lies with atheists. Which is why I think "converting" you to atheism is so wrong headed. I can't prove to you that Xianity is false, any more than I can't prove to you that unicorns are false. I just have zero proof either of them is real, and will continue to rate the odds of them being real as extremely low. I don't really consider myself a atheist in a traditional sense, my mind is always open for some proof of God or Gods existence. What I am is a gambler. And I see no reason at all to handicap xianity's likely hood of being real any more or less than any other major religions. And I don't have that number to be very high at all. But since the cost of losing this wager is pretty high, I'm always looking for a hot tip to change my wager, untill then I'm not going to live my life according to what I see as being overwhelmingly likely to be fairy tales.

[speedz99 145]

I don't like the idea of converting someone. Sparring with a strong believer for shits and giggles, sure. But actually making an effort to convince someone that God doesn't exist seems odd.

[KramitDaToad 0]

A small clarification - you don't 'Convert to Atheism'. Atheism is not a religion, it is the absence of religion. A fun analogy is that Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour. To be an atheist is a mindset that chooses not to take a worldview on faith, but to base it on evidence.A simple exercise is to examine why you reject Hinduism, Islam or Judaism. As a Christian you must believe these to be false relgions. By what standards do you determine them to be false and why do those standards not apply to Christianity?If your only answer is essentially 'Hinduism is a false religion because the Bible says it is' then you are being intellectually dishonest. DUCY?

[Spademan 94]

Just spend many many hours learning about, and more important, learning to utilize reason, logic, empiricism and critical thinking.God becomes Santa Claus for adults.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Prove to me that I should be an atheist.

Unless you're a religious believer who takes part in killing others that don't agree with you or something else morally repulsive such as that, I don't think most atheists are really looking to mess with religions at all. As an agnostic, I'm looking to do it even less, if possible.I'm sure it was unintentional, but your OP seems to imply that atheists are looking to convert people the way that religions try to convert people. They aren't. You are allowed to believe what you want to believe (I realize there are exceptions, there always are). Atheists just happen to believe there isn't a God (and arguably they have the most convincing support for this belief).I became agnostic when I just simply realized I didn't believe the stuff they taught in church anymore. You can't just force yourself to believe something, so I stopped.

[HollywoodAFD 0]

IMO... many people would rather be classified as athiest because it's easier.No rules.... nothing. They have the notion that being a Christian is too difficult...what with all those rules and regulations and what-not.Before you intend to reply with "Nu-huh.... I'm an athiest because xtians are stupid..." refer to IMO

[hblask 1]

here's the thing. Atheism isn't looking for converts. The whole "convert" thing is xianity's bag, not atheism's. I wasn't converted to atheism by anyone. It was just slow, hard process of realizing I didn't believe in God, that Jesus my personal lord and savior being extremely unlikely, and letting go of my fear of death, fear of the great void, so I could really accept what I already believed to be true. It was a very difficult process for me, and it wasn't done by a charismatic atheist winning me over to the dark side, it was a product of a great deal of thought and oddsmaking.

Excellent....

IMO... many people would rather be classified as athiest because it's easier.No rules.... nothing. They have the notion that being a Christian is too difficult...what with all those rules and regulations and what-not.Before you intend to reply with "Nu-huh.... I'm an athiest because xtians are stupid..." refer to IMO

What makes you think atheists don't have rules? The people I've met who are openly atheist are just as moral as the people who are openly religious. There are lots of moral and ethical reasons to behave in society; I just don't find "fear of being smote by an angry supernatural being" to be a particularly compelling one.

[bigkg 0]

Like what was said before, I never "converted" to atheism. I just reached a point in my life where I realized it made no logical sense for there to be a God.Spademan got it right; it's like Santa Claus for adults.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

IMO... many people would rather be classified as athiest because it's easier.No rules.... nothing. They have the notion that being a Christian is too difficult...what with all those rules and regulations and what-not.Before you intend to reply with "Nu-huh.... I'm an athiest because xtians are stupid..." refer to IMO

Smokey, this is not Nam. This is Christianity. There are rules.also, while I don't think Christians are necessarily stupid, I do think you are. That is about the most retarded thing I've ever read. IMO.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I love how people slap "IMO" on stuff, and expect their retarded statements to somehow be immune to criticism. "I can't be wrong, dude, it's just like, my opinion, man"

[TheCinciKid 0]

A small clarification - you don't 'Convert to Atheism'. Atheism is not a religion, it is the absence of religion. A fun analogy is that Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour. To be an atheist is a mindset that chooses not to take a worldview on faith, but to base it on evidence.A simple exercise is to examine why you reject Hinduism, Islam or Judaism. As a Christian you must believe these to be false relgions. By what standards do you determine them to be false and why do those standards not apply to Christianity?If your only answer is essentially 'Hinduism is a false religion because the Bible says it is' then you are being intellectually dishonest. DUCY?

You and others in this thread seem to be under the impression that I'm a christian. I was raised that way yes, but I'm not really a christian at the moment. Anyway, on to the points made in this thread. BidDMcGee was the only one who seemed to me to make a real effort to explain his atheism and even that seemed to be not much more than thinking that the prinicples and tenets of christianity seem unlikely to be true. I just don't see that as all that convincing an argument for there being no higher power or God at all. Maybe in saying "convert me" I used bad terminology. I'm not actively seeking to become an atheist, I'm just interested in it as a belief system. I feel like I've learned very little from this thread, but ok. New question for the atheists in here. Have you read any books or articles that swayed you to becomin an atheist? Have you heard of a book called The God Delusion? I'm considering reading it, any thoughts on it? Thanks.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

You and others in this thread seem to be under the impression that I'm a christian. I was raised that way yes, but I'm not really a christian at the moment. Anyway, on to the points made in this thread. BidDMcGee was the only one who seemed to me to make a real effort to explain his atheism and even that seemed to be not much more than thinking that the prinicples and tenets of christianity seem unlikely to be true. I just don't see that as all that convincing an argument for there being no higher power or God at all. Maybe in saying "convert me" I used bad terminology. I'm not actively seeking to become an atheist, I'm just interested in it as a belief system. I feel like I've learned very little from this thread, but ok. New question for the atheists in here. Have you read any books or articles that swayed you to becomin an atheist? Have you heard of a book called The God Delusion? I'm considering reading it, any thoughts on it? Thanks.

Um, as a formal belief system, I can't really help you, I don't have one, and atheism really isn't one. Your may be better off with "Secular Humanism" or "unitarianism" rather than atheism, if you're looking for non-god based belief systems. Me, I'm more of a nihilist. Again, I think there being some sort of higher power is much more likely to be true than xianity is of being true. And yet, I've still never seen any proof at all that there is one. So I lump it into "doesn't matter" if there is a God or not. Again, I am perfectly willing to believe in a God or higher power, if A) there was proof of it and B ) my belief in the higher power mattered at all.

[speedz99 145]

IMO... many people would rather be classified as athiest because it's easier.No rules.... nothing. They have the notion that being a Christian is too difficult...what with all those rules and regulations and what-not.Before you intend to reply with "Nu-huh.... I'm an athiest because xtians are stupid..." refer to IMO

Like someone said, of course there are rules. We live in the same society you do and probably have almost identical morals. I just do things because they are the right things to do, not because I'm afraid that if I don't I'll burn in hell.What's hard about being a Christian? You get to be told how to think, what to believe in, etc. Seems pretty easy to me. You know why people want to be classified as atheists? Because they don't believe there is a god. And, although this is probably impossible for you to understand, that has nothing to do with defying religion.

Anyway, on to the points made in this thread. BidDMcGee was the only one who seemed to me to make a real effort to explain his atheism and even that seemed to be not much more than thinking that the prinicples and tenets of christianity seem unlikely to be true. I just don't see that as all that convincing an argument for there being no higher power or God at all.

I guess I'm more agnostic than atheist (if I understand the definition correctly). I believe that there could be a god, although it's very unlikely, but that if there is a god he/she/it has absolutely nothing to do with organized religion...just creating the universe and the laws of nature before letting everything run its course. I believe that because there is no objective evidence that there definitely is a god, and it's impossible to prove that there definitely is not a god. There is no argument that there 100% cannot possibly be a higher power, so if you're looking for that you might as well give up. As I said, it's just extraordinarily unlikely based on all the evidence we currently have.

[longshottwelve 0]

I'm curious as to why you are not a Catholic anymore? You might have your answer there. I too was raised Catholic and now most closely relate to being agnostic. I know for me, the reason I left the church was only one step away from not believing in a God altogether (just took me a few years to take that step).If you're trying to find out why atheists think God is absurd, maybe it's the same reason you might think Papal law is absurd... because it makes no sense.

[HollywoodAFD 0]

Smokey, this is not Nam. This is Christianity. There are rules.also, while I don't think Christians are necessarily stupid, I do think you are. That is about the most retarded thing I've ever read. IMO.

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: BigDMcGee. · View this post · Un-ignore BigDMcGee Manage your ignored usersThis section allows you to set up your ignored users list.When you add a user to your ignore list, any posts they make will be masked until you specify that you wish to read them. You may not be able to ignore users if they are in a member group which doesn't allow them to be added.Name Group Posts BigDMcGee Members 8961 Welcome to the ignored list....member number 3.Thank you. You continuously validate my points with your immature behaviour. "I think you're stupid" --- grow up and stop drunk posting on here. You never offer anything to this forum but misery which follows you everywhere.You are a sad, unhappy little boy and noone cares to hear what you say. Oh... that's IMO.

[bobbywithani 0]

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: BigDMcGee. · View this post · Un-ignore BigDMcGee Manage your ignored usersThis section allows you to set up your ignored users list.When you add a user to your ignore list, any posts they make will be masked until you specify that you wish to read them. You may not be able to ignore users if they are in a member group which doesn't allow them to be added.Name Group Posts BigDMcGee Members 8961 Welcome to the ignored list....member number 3.Thank you. You continuously validate my points with your immature behaviour. "I think you're stupid" --- grow up and stop drunk posting on here. You never offer anything to this forum but misery which follows you everywhere.You are a sad, unhappy little boy and noone cares to hear what you say. Oh... that's IMO.

This is funny, but not for the reason you are thinking.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

This is funny, but not for the reason you are thinking.

that breaks my heart, believe me.

[bobbywithani 0]

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

LOL that's exactly, exactly right. He says stupid, insulting things about atheists, then gets all butt hurt hurt I call them stupid. I've often seen this tactic in forum and chat rooms where a believer will have a very, very fragile grip on the logical basis of their beliefs, and rather than engage people in debate, they make retardo statements and generalizations, and then when confronted go with the head in the sand route. Shit like " atheists aren't christians 'cause it's too hard" is the same fuzzy logic as " Muslims hate us because of our freedom" way to turn your brain straight off.but yeah, I'm the immature one. Closing your eyes and covering your ears and saying "la la la la la" is the mark of maturity.

[bigkg 0]

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: BigDMcGee. · View this post · Un-ignore BigDMcGee Manage your ignored usersThis section allows you to set up your ignored users list.When you add a user to your ignore list, any posts they make will be masked until you specify that you wish to read them. You may not be able to ignore users if they are in a member group which doesn't allow them to be added.Name Group Posts BigDMcGee Members 8961 Welcome to the ignored list....member number 3.Thank you. You continuously validate my points with your immature behaviour. "I think you're stupid" --- grow up and stop drunk posting on here. You never offer anything to this forum but misery which follows you everywhere.You are a sad, unhappy little boy and noone cares to hear what you say. Oh... that's IMO.

You're probably the worst poster on FCP.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

You're probably the worst poster on FCP.

well, now that FWP is banned, I guess.

[bigkg 0]

well, now that FWP is banned, I guess.

I don't know, as annoying as FWP was we could at least laugh at his stupidity. This guy adds nothing, every post he makes just sucks.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I don't know, as annoying as FWP was we could at least laugh at his stupidity. This guy adds nothing, every post he makes just sucks.

yeah, but at least he isn't an intellectually dishonest douchebag like the guy in your sig.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Not to mention, modern, mainstream xianity is one of the most ruleless of any religion out there, so I would not be so quick to throw around the lazy card. Orthodox jew didn't cop out and discard all of the old testament law. Their lives in the modern world are tough. They can't eat anything basically, on fridays they can't do anything, work any kind of electricity, they have all kinds of rules of behavior. Observant muslims have 5 ritual prayers they must do a day, have a much stricter dietary code, and code of behavior, and have the most brutal and impressive fast in any major religion. Mormons go on 2 year missionary service, the amish can't use zippers for fcks sake, much less use electricity. Basically, the modern mainstream xian can do what ever the hell he wants, ask forgiveness for it, and viola, no big whoop. The rules card is a really poor one to play, imo. Yes yes, lois, I know I know, they aren't biblical xians. Well, I'd wager my farm that this d-bag fits the modern mainstream xian mold more than your vision of xianity.