Good Forum Discussion, Why I like 4 5 suited over AK !

[robby850 0]

I am beginning a small study that is trying to prove that 45 suited is a better hand (in almost all situations) than AK. When I say better hand I mean in terms of monetary gains vs losses. My main focus will be on the following, Game(NL or Limit)hands played , amount raised, from which position, how many players , amount lost and amount won. This will be both done online and live. My thesis will be based on the basic concept of 45 suited wins big pots and is easy to get away from . AK loses big pots and usually wins small ones. Also, most people can not lay down AK, but in these situations i will play the AK somewhat conservative, which means maybe i will fire only one bullet after a blank flop. The main point of this is to see if the winning larger pots with 45 will supercede the obvious problems with the hand, counterfeited 2 pair, higher flushes, 4 card flush on board and so on. Any suited connector could be used , 45 just happens to be my favorite.Also, I will not just limp in on these hands, i will either raise or maybe call if enough people are in an already raised preflop situation.Please provide any input or ideas to contribute, just thought it would be good to know! I thank a well known east coast player in opening my eyes to post flop play with these hands!... thanks rick!!! please feel free to disagree constructively, if you want to bash the idea please back it up!!! Let the debate begin. My friend met daniel in an elevator at the borgata. My friend said hello and he responded and they had a 5 minute conversation about my friends poker play(what stakes, tournaments etc.... Not once did Daniel mention he had just won over 1 million dollars less then 30 minutes earlier... MUCH RESPECT!!!! Will be rooting for you Daniel. Robby850

[JTPHS 0]

so are you gonna stop playin' AK if your hypothesis holds loli agree with you here and i'm very interested to see how your study turns out.Both of these hands are hard to play and should be left to an advanced player. Also, i think this depends on the style of play you want, and the type of game your in. ie. low limit holdem this could screw you pretty good scenes how i rake most of my pots in good times with top pair top kicker taking down A5, not throwing my money into pots and chasing straight and flush draws that get there.Just something to possibly apply to your conclusion. Good luck! I'll keep thinkin' about it and post later:)

[Patman 0]

This debate is somewhat similar to a discussion I saw elsewhere. The question was, if you could be dealt 22 or AA everytime which one would you take? Now of course your imediate reaction is to choose AA, but one argument in favor of 22 is that wheneve you dont hit your set, you can easily lay down the deuces. Yet, when you have pocket aces it is much harder to lay it down when its the overpair, hence causing you to lose larger pots more frequently with aces. The debate boils down to, Aces will win far more than 1/8 of the time (the percentage that you will hit your set) and therefore the aces is a lot more profitable choice in the long run. However, the deuces is a lot safer play and wont have as large of swings.I think your hypothesis is a little more clear cut because it is a lot easier to lay down AK when it doesnt hit in comparison to when AA doesnt hit a set. Although of course there are many middle of the road hands AK can hit which AA wont. I think your particular argument is interesting though because low suited connectors have the best chance of cracking a premium hand. I think 67 suited has the best chance to crack Aces more so than any other hand. If someone could run the numbers to see what hand has the best chance against Aces, that would be interesting to know.

[robby850 0]

thanks for the info.. here s some more info... i can't believe i forgot it... Stakes will be 1/2 and 2/4 NL both online and live.... also 5/10 and 10/20 limit. 5/10 will be 6 handed . 10 20 will be full ring game.. As for the style of play, it will vary(obviously). My game will not change and i will not play these hands just because i am surveying them. I am playing my game and just tracking the results. I would classify my general strategy as crafty. I like to play many hands in NL when the stacks are there to take.... Limit is a tight game but 45 will be opening it up a bit. One more side note on why I think 45 will be more rewarding .... When someone raises.. 90% of poker players put him on AK... no matter what... 45 can take down a pot even when an A or a K flop because of the representation of AK. When you have AK and raise and an AK flop.. then u win a tiny pot unless of course u lose a big pot... robby850

[hoof31 0]

Daniel, if you are out there I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

[robby850 0]

67 has a better shot since an A is not a straight card. I personally feel the 45 is better because an A is a str8 card and we all know people can't let go of an Ax when an Ace flops. good info... keep it coming

[TheIceman05 0]

I hate to be the big contrarian, here, but....You know, has it occurred to anyone that AK loses a lot of big pots because everyone plays it so terribly? Someone wrote early in this thread that "both (AK and 45s)are hard to play and should be left to an advanced player." Now, I'll readily admit that I'm a moron, but doesn't that seem just a little... outrageous? HOW on EARTH is AK a hand that should be left to experts? It's not a hard hand to play at all... assuming you play rather straightforwardly. In fact, it's one of the few hands I would definitely encourage the absolute begginner to have in his arsenal. Here's where my problem lies: AK shouldn't be a hard hand to lay down if played correctly. Yes, I understand that it is... and it is for me, too, but only when I'm misplaying it. If I miss the flop, and don't sense any weakness, I try to fold unless I'm getting good odds and think an A or K will win it for me.Also, people tend to undervalue AK because the game they play in isn't tough enough. How much would you be able to play 45s against a field of tight-aggressive opponents? If you're playing in the game I play in, shit... of COURSE 45s is going to make you a lot of money. And it seems like the game you play in is like that, because everybody puts you on AK when you raise, which happens in my weak game. But when I play with all of my astute, strong, break-even friends, 45s becomes a LOT less valuable. If I'm facing a raise, I'm not going to be getting the pot odds to play after the flop. Whatever, that was a terrible rambling post. But I think this is ridiculous, to a degree. Give me AK any day, especially in a tough game.Anyone else on my side? Ice

[Patman 0]

I think what he meant was that it should be left to expert players to debate how to play AK, not that only expert players should play AK. At least thats how I read it.

[the_stein 0]

the iceman is right, stfu AK > 45 just because you play 45 better then AK does not make it a better or more profitable hand

[lostyourchips2me 0]

I think you like 45 better then ak since you just suck at poker you dont know how to play any hand properly,tell me if you ever play for money.

[Smasharoo 0]

1. You're wrong.2. This has been done 100,000,000,000 times.3. http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/tot...php?order=valueActual data on the hands as they are played.AK is easy to find with a sample set of over 1,o00,000 real hands because it's near the top of the profitability list while 45 suited is in the red so it might be harder to find.

[theben 0]

thanks for the info.. here s some more info... i can't believe i forgot it... Stakes will be 1/2 and 2/4 NL both online and live.... also 5/10 and 10/20 limit. 5/10 will be 6 handed . 10 20 will be full ring game.. As for the style of play, it will vary(obviously). My game will not change and i will not play these hands just because i am surveying them. I am playing my game and just tracking the results. I would classify my general strategy as crafty. I like to play many hands in NL when the stacks are there to take.... Limit is a tight game but 45 will be opening it up a bit. One more side note on why I think 45 will be more rewarding .... When someone raises.. 90% of poker players put him on AK... no matter what... 45 can take down a pot even when an A or a K flop because of the representation of AK. When you have AK and raise and an AK flop.. then u win a tiny pot unless of course u lose a big pot... robby850

although this thesis is interesting, it probably wont hold true. if anybody has ever read the poker bible, we all know that small suited connecting cards can be good hands. but lets take a look at this first from the point of limit holdem:many pots in limit holdem will be shown down. if you play your 45s like AK and raise, representing a big pair or a big hand, your going to have to show it down. if you cant improve, you are in trouble. even if an A or K falls down, never assume a bet will take it down on the flop with a bluff. there are simply too many players nowadays who will call you.when you hit with this hand in limit, 45s, you will have a hand that can play for a bunch of bets. but this hand will not hit very frequently and when you win, you dont get to crack somebody's stack with it. so your max earnings go down since you cant move-in. connectors go way down in limit holdem because of the loss of implied odds. implied odds are what make connectors good NL hands. with limits on bets, your implied odds and potential winnings plummet. to make a 45s viable in limit, you'll want good preflop calling odds (or you'll want to be at a ultra super tight table where you can steal easily. but if this is the case, your cards dont really matter)AK will give you many more playable flops and when it hits, it will hold up enough of the time. it will win you many more decent sized pots and should bring in a more steady income that in the long run, is considerably more than a 45s.it is true that AK (or other big pairs for that matter) won't give you a cinch hand to play and you'll normally be going with a single pair. so bad players can lose a lot with this hand when they can't fold if beaten. however, for a player who can lay down, steady earnings from AK will win in the long run. big pairs and AK are better in limit--when they get beat, you wont lose that much. and they dont get beaten so often that they become bad hands(unles you are playing at super loose chaser tables)note that at tables where everybody sees the flop and pots arent raised at all, i might prefer a 45s. AKos doesnt do well in 9 way pots. but at 5/10 and 10/20 limit, AK is a bigger winner.if you want to hit a hand that might win without any improvement on any of the later streets:remember, about 1/3 of the time, AK pairs up. i dont remeber the specific odds (i once calculated them) for 2pair, trips, and a straight, but its in the high 30's% to flop a single pair or better with AK. compare that to a 45s which will hit a flop that may win without help (2pair, trips, flush, straight) this should happen about 10% or less. i once did all the numbers for this but unfortunetly, i forgot them.in limit, you'll be playing and winning more in the long run with AK (in most situations)

[theben 0]

heres a quick addition:45s at a 6 handed table cant even hold a candle against the value of an AK. shorthanded holdem play is more based around catching big cards, and even more so in limit. 45s will never get the necessary action in a 6 handed table and should almost always be passed on. some of the ecxeptions would be frequent 6 handed limped pots, or completing the SB for 1/2 price with a few players in the pot. and i would much prefer my opponents to play real poorly on the flop and beyond...

[theben 0]

for no limiteverybody has read SS. everybody knows the line "you'll either win a small pot or lose a big pot" in refernce to AA or KK. because of the similiarities between an overpair of AA or KK and AK TPTK, you can often put AK into the same line.in my opinion, an AK holds up much better than a 45s for limit HE games. but in NL holdem, the gap in potential winnings shrinks between these 2 hands. the implied odds of somebody's whole stack increases the value of a 45s because you can move all in.the modified (increased or decreased) value of a 45s depends on many factors, but some include:-the inability of players at your table to toss big pairs or AK themselves-the max buyin of the game. if you play at a 50BB buyin game with an standard table bring in bet of 4-6bbs, small connectors are usually not worth calling preflop raises. often, you would call off 8-12% of your stack where you only have a slim chance to hit your hand. and even if you hit, theres never a gaurantee in a big payoff.-the looseness of the other players. its a double edged sword. bad loose players might pay off thier whole stack with top pair ANY kicker. bad loose players also love to limp with any face. this makes trips in constant kicker trouble. also remember--bottom 2 pair is a very unstable hand.if people play any 2 suited cards, you run the risk of being outflush as well. if you flop a flush with the connectors and somebody else does, your will be the worst in almost any case.in optimal conditions, you'll almost only win big pots with 45s and lose small ones. however, in more normal conditions you'll find in todays 1/2 and 2/4 NL ring games, you are apt to run into trouble with the 45s when you turn trips, 2 pair, or a flush.also note that the type of table you are at modifies the value of AK. this section will be like what i wrote on 45s, but will be from the AK point of view-if you are against players who will payoff pot sized or 3/4 pot sized bets with TP2nd or less (KQ, KJ, AQ, AJ) then the value of AK as a 'sell hand' increases dramatically-if you are against ace happy players (or players who play KX) who call too much, you'll extract lots from them most of the time but occasionally get hurt when they hit 2 pair. this is why you must play AK a certain way against them-the skill level of players. this ties in to point 1 and 2. its hard to win a big pot, hand against hand with AK from a good player. a good player simply wont payoff his whole stack with a KQ. (also note that a good player wont payoff his whole stack with AK TPTK aginst a 45s that makes trips.)When all these factors combine into a "typical" game at the 1/2 or 2/4 NL level, which is frequently a 100 or 200$ buyin at 50BBs, you probably will still find AK is a better hand in the long run.if you play the hand optimally--sell the hand well to worse kickers, control the size of the pot you play against ace happy players (maximizing winnings from a weak ace and minimizing loss to an unreadable 2 pair), you should find AK to be the superior hand.most players in those games will let you sell them a hand. while it is true that the 45s will win bigger pots than your AK, i feel that AK will win a steady enough stream of mid sized pots to be the long run winner. just as long as you know how to play AK and can fold it as top pair, you wont get broke from a set or 2pair and you'll win frequently.final word: with AK, if you pair on the flop its much more likely you are in there with a player who has a A or K with a poorer (but big) kicker. its less likely to lose huge pots than AA or KK because its more likely to run into a hand it can beat. with AA or KK, you cant be happy to be called on a 9 high flop. but with AK to make a hand, the flop will be A or K high, and there'll be plenty of hands you can dominate. sets are always a fear to run into. but also remeber to lose with AK to a flopped set, he must catch AND you much catch. hes got only 2 cards to hit to win money from you. so its also harder to lose to a set with AK.

[Smasharoo 0]

the modified (increased or decreased) value of a 45s depends on many factors, but some include: Idiots who don't raise pre-flop with AK to make the implied odds of calling with 45s worthless.That's about the only one that matters.45s is junk relative to AK in limit, in NL, in PL, in big games, in small games, shorthanded, multiway, when played by chimps, when played by Doyle, etc.Don't confuse a hand being playable in NL with it being better than another hand.

[robby850 0]

JUST AK JUST 45 suited... To use the EV figures from all the hands played at pokerroom is absurd. this study is for advanced holdem. Not someone that is gonna call a raise heads up with 45 suited. I agree with the 6 handed element discussed above... In 6 handed limit, AK far outways 45 due to the lack of odds. Full game may differ. Main point is AK is still a drawing hand. A hand which is overvalued and misplayed more often then any other hand. In simplistic terms 45 can be easy to let go... it can also be very profitable. more so then just a small pair would be(which people call with way tooo often). Due appreciate the feed back.. (at least the valid ones) Like the facts ... good stuff.. keep it coming...

[fluxer 0]

I am reminded of a $600 pot I lost a few days ago with my AA versus 67s for a flush on the river. Little did I know that my opponent could be calling pot sized bets legitimately with a draw and not AK or something with a King high board... open ended straight and flush draw on the flop, ugh.Good luck with the study. I think this could be a legitimate study but only in No Limit due to the psychology of not being able to lay down big hands after one's opponent makes his/her hand with oddball hole cards such as 45s.Regardless of the results, however, I won't treat 45s much differently... usually it's going in the muck unless I can see a good cheap flop.

[Smasharoo 0]

Main point is AK is still a drawing hand.There's the rub of your misunderstanding of it's value.To use the EV figures from all the hands played at pokerroom is absurd. this study is for advanced holdem. Not someone that is gonna call a raise heads up with 45 suited.I agree with the 6 handed element discussed above... In 6 handed limit, AK far outways 45 due to the lack of odds.Full game may differ. Ten player advanced holdem games won't have 5 people to the flop to offer odds to play 45s. Playing 45s in a tight agressive game is good way to lose money. People raise with it in a tough game for deception, not for value.The only people 45s might be more profitable to play are LESS advanced players who can't get away from AK unimproved in multiway pots.Your study is COMPLETELY POINTLESS AND REDUNDANT.Let me point out again it's been done 1000 times allready.Aside from some imaginary pseudo-intelectual self stroke fest what's the point? Wouldn't it be easier to sail from Spain to America to prove you won't fall off the edge of the Earth?45s is barely above junk. It's playable situationally, with position, in certain very weak passive games. That's it.I'm a little fuzzy on where your grossly and ludicrously undervaluing AK comes from. You sucking at playing AK doesn't make it a weak hand.

[Smasharoo 0]

While we're here, let's look at some of the many problems with 45s.1. It makes underflushes. Often.2. It makes a weak two pair. Often.3. It hits the flop with weak draws subject to many redraws. Often.4. It beats the following hands unimproved: 23, 24, 25, 34, and NOTHING ELSE. 5. It makes a virtually useless single pair that will never, ever, be top pair. 6. To have any value it requires MASSIVE implied odds making it playable only in the weakest of games.Now let's look at the plus side:1. People who play like ass postflop can get away from it more easily than AK.That's about it really.

[Speedy Petey 0]

smasharoo, chill out. Tired of you you using profanity and bashing everyone that does not agree with you. If you are so good post a pic of your WSOP bracelet.

[Smasharoo 0]

smasharoo, chill out. Tired of you you using profanity and bashing everyone that does not agree with you. I'm deeply chided by your cutting comments.I may hide under my desk in a fetal position and cry myself to sleep for a few days now before killing myself in shame and disgrace.Oh wait, that's right, I don't care at all what you think.At all.Get it?Your oppinion is meaningless to me. It's just an adverserial debate. 45s isn't better than AK, sorry. It's not an unkown thing. It's not an exciting new thing to explore. It's not a new idea. It's not something worth exploring.I'm just trying to save someone the time and embarassment of realizing how silly he was being.

[robby850 0]

I appreciate your comments smasharoo... I will be quitting poker and picking up ping pong instead.(less implied odds). thank you again. My only poker knowledge was watching Robert Varkoni's poker video. Good luck at the WSOP...

[iveyfan30 0]

seems like this debate has become more of an issue because these are the types of cards that daniel was speaking of in his last journal entry..amazing how ppl will just rip off his comments as their own..

[Spidurman 0]

the only advantage to 54 vs AK is that its blindingly obvious you have the best hand (or exactly where you stand) and can play accordingly.A flop of KJ6 with AK is dicey (does he have a set or a big draw), while 54 its a muck. A flop of 367 with 54 is huge (obviously).

[Smasharoo 0]

I appreciate your comments smasharoo... I will be quitting poker and picking up ping pong instead.(less implied odds). thank you again. My only poker knowledge was watching Robert Varkoni's poker video. Good luck at the WSOP...It's a shame you don't know enough to debate the completely valid points I raise and instead resort to a pthetic attempt at humor. Who'd have thought that you sucked so badly at two things at once??Anyway, I think it probably is best if you stop playing poker if you're going to spend your time creating imaginary "studies" about theory that's been understood for decades.Stick to having tea parties with the stuffed animals.